The Silmarillion Discussion at The Hall of Fire

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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

The Ultimate Authority wrote:... filled with wrath and despair he mounted upon Rochallor his great horse and rode forth alone, and none might restrain him. He passed over Dor-nu-Fauglith like a wind amid the dust, and and all that beheld his onset fled in amaze, thinking that Oromë himself was come: for a great madness of rage was upon him, so that his eyes shone like the eyes of the Valar.
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Post by axordil »

The tension between the different behaviors of Turgon and Fingolfin in the face of doom is the same tension at the heart of most, perhaps all, heroic romance of the Middle Ages: the role of the warrior versus the role of the king when the same person wears both a helm and a crown. It's there in Beowulf, and the Arthurian stories, and the Niebelungenlied.

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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Ax, would you care to elaborate?
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Post by axordil »

Simply put: a warrior society expects a warrior to be fearless and daring, even in the face of his own death. It is better to die gloriously with one's personal honor intact than to live on cravenly. This is especially true if your death serves your lord. Not quite Bushido, not quite Chivalry, but definitely a warrior's ethos.

However, when that warrior ascends to the throne, suddenly following those precepts is a problem. He is now the lord for which others die, and while his personal courage must be unquestioned, there is a limit to how reckless he can be. When a warrior can't make that transition, bad things ensue.

For a really good look at Tolkien's examination of the problem, look at his one-act play on the Battle of Maldon, "The Homecoming of Beorthnoth Beorthelm’s Son."
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

That's really interesting. Thanks, Ax. Any more thoughts about how this relates to Fingolfin and Turgon (beyond the obvious)?
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Post by MithLuin »

Right - the Battle of Malden shows what happens when a lord is irresponsible, even if noble. Tolkien's essay on 'ofermod' explores this quite well.

I think this also shows up in Denethor's critique of Faramir. Faramir would be the noble Lord, but Denethor echos the orcs of Mordor by basically saying "don't you know we're at war?" Faramir can't afford to be lordly and keep his word (and let the One Ring get away...) But in that case, Tolkien does not take the side of Denethor ;).

Fingolfin does not risk anyone's life but his own, but he does abdicate his responsibility as High King. Not that he was any better at uniting the troops than his son Fingon will be, but it was his responsibility. Maedhros had acknowledged his overlordship, but there was no guarantee the Feanoreans would recognize Fingon (well, okay, Maedhros would, but perhaps he'd find it more difficult to rule his brothers in this case).

But still, his death is not quite the rashness of Fëanor pressing ahead with few men around him in the first battle. His eyes are open - it is an intentional sacrifice.
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Post by axordil »

MithLuin wrote:Fingolfin does not risk anyone's life but his own, but he does abdicate his responsibility as High King.
And there's the rub. His responsibility as High King includes not throwing away his own leadership and life needlessly. His madness and rage manifest in an abdication of that responsibility in favor of the simpler ethos of fighting bravely and dying...no matter how much damage it may do to his people.

Turgon, OTOH, is (while culpable in other ways) capable of seeing, when Huor speaks to him at the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, that sometimes just hanging on can be as vital to a people's survival as fighting overtly.

The difference between Fingolfin's actions and Fëanor's is more one of madness and ofermod vs. sheer overconfidence and the power of the moment.
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Post by superwizard »

Yes I never saw Fëanor's and Fingolfin's actions as similar.
V yes you did so cleverly point out that Fingolfin was madn with anger but I believe that was after he realized the whole war was doomed and had been doomed from the start with no hope of winning-ever. In LOTR there was still hope, even if slim. Fingolfin realized there was none. I ask you what's the point of holding out in a cave hiding from the inevitable? Elves are immortal so Turgon should have realized the sooner or later Morgoth would find him and that year after year his power was growing. The only difference-as I see it- was that Turgon had hope that the Valar would come save them; Fingolfin (I believe did not).

PS: Fingolfin's mentality was very similar to Denethor and so I would like to point out a very beautiful phrase:
Battle is vain. Why should we wish to live longer? Why should we not go to death side by side?'
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

superwizard wrote:In LOTR there was still hope, even if slim. Fingolfin realized there was none. I ask you what's the point of holding out in a cave hiding from the inevitable? Elves are immortal so Turgon should have realized the sooner or later Morgoth would find him and that year after year his power was growing. The only difference-as I see it- was that Turgon had hope that the Valar would come save them; Fingolfin (I believe did not).
With all due respect, I think you are missing something very fundamental here, my friend. In LOTR Frodo is most heroic precisely because he continued to pursue his quest beyond the limits of hope (indeed, in a draft of Many Partings Gandalf gives Frodo the name Bronwe athan Harthad , which means "Endurance beyond Hope"). But that hope is what Tolkien labeled Amdir -"an expectation of good which though uncertain has some foundation in that which is known". However, as discussed by Finrod in the Athrabeth, there is a deeper kind of hope - Estel -"a trust which is not defeated by the ways of the world". On the surface at least, Fingolfin's failure was a failure of Estel - a lack of faith that Eru would eventually find a way to make things right.

But I don't think that things can be looked at that simply. It seems to me (and I'm sure Sassy will be happy to hear me say this if she ever gets her cute little butt in here) that Fingolfin's insane yet inspirational challenge to Morgoth was a necessary component in the Tale originally composed by Eru Himself, and overseen by the Valar. For (since we have made the comparison between them) what is the essential difference between Fingolfin and Turgon? Is it not that Ulmo laid a deep sleep on Turgon (and his friend Finrod), inspired him with a deep desire to find a strong guarded place, and then actually led him to Gondolin? Was Turgon not chosen to be an instrument of Ulmo's in furthering his own plan for the eventual redemption of the Noldor by his grandson Eärendil hundreds of years later, just as Morgoth's victory appears to be utterly complete? How then can his father Fingolfin, who was not never so chosen, be castigated for failing to do what Turgon did?

Nay, I believe that Fingolfin was but playing the role that his destiny chose for him, just as was his half-brother that he agreed to follow. Little did he know how true these words would be when he spoke them:

'Half brother in blood, full brother in heart will I be. Thou shalt lead and I will follow.'
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Post by superwizard »

V I have to admit I have no knowledge of Tolkien's works other than the four main books. Therefore I couldn't possibly attempt to dispute with you on such an intellectual level (it would almost be as if a child holding a young sapling attempted to challenge a knight) rather I wish to learn from you. :D
As for this strange faith that you call Estel I have to ask is it just me or does it seem very similar to religion?
I thank you for pointing out that Frodo had actually lost hope and still continued, I had read it many times before but I never stopped to actually think about it. (I think in this way he surpasses even Fingolfin)
Also V you said that Fingolfin was but playing the role his destiny chose for him and I have point out that even if he was playing a role his destiny chose it was still his choice write? Could he not have escaped his doom (I know Túrin tried to but did he succeed? I don't think so :scratch: )

Finally I have to thank you V for helping me understand Tolkien's works better; I actually see you as a teacher in the realm of Tolkien(hope you don't mind)
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

I certainly don't mind; I appreciate your willingness to learn very much.

Yes, the concept of "Estel" is a very much a reflection of Tolkien's faith. And the question of destiny versus free will has very much been at the heart of this discussion since it began back at TORC over a year and half ago :shock: (and, I believe, really must be at the heart of any serious discussion of the Silmarillion). I myself go back and forth (like a small sapling waving in the wind) between the two concepts.
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Post by axordil »

It is also hard to overestimate the effect of the Doom of the Noldor upon the psyche of the Noldorin princes as the wars of Beleriand dragged on, especially when something like the Dagor Bragollach slapped them in the collective face with it. There is a general dwindling (with the exception of the wisest, such as Finrod) in the will of the Noldor, which is only offset by the vitality of the Edain...who are not bound in the same way to fate.

To be honest, I'm not sure the Noldor were ever capable of Estel, or if they needed it. In Aman it wasn't needed, and in Beleriand it was subsumed in the Doom.
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Post by Jnyusa »

I don’t like this chapter. :)

Voronwë, perhaps you can tell us when The Fall was written relative to other pieces of the Sil? I have the impression that this was one of the earlier things that Tolkien wrote, and that it was connected later at both ends in revision.

The reason I think this way about it ... at one point on TORC someone posted a link to the Kalavela in English and I read goodly chunk of it. That was, if you all recall, one of the earliest pieces of epic lit that Tolkien translated. I was struck how much of it found its way into the Sil, albeit with elvish props, and I was also somewhat disappointed to discover this.

Chapter 13 reads to me as if it were lifted in its entirety from Norse myth.
There’s just too much skein of doom, with this relentless Morgothian malice pitted against an indifferent Valinor, while elves and men are pawns in a battle whose scale they can’t comprehend. If there is one thing missing from this chapter, it is a notion of estel. Not one single good deed goes unpunished.

I don’t consider this tale at all representative of where Tolkien ultimately took his stories, and I speculate within myself whether he did not effectively transcribe lots of Norse myth just to see how it would ‘set’ in English. And I don’t think he can have been very happy with the doom of Beleriand because the providence which stands by while the Halls of Mandos fill with dead elves is very different from the providence that aids Frodo.

Can you imagine, for example, Frodo killing Sam while under the mad influence of the ring? We can hardly entertain Tolkien writing something like this into LotR, not just because of the snares it would create but because the providential perspective of LotR does not entertain acts of this nature that would inevitably lead to despair. When it comes time for Frodo to ‘fail,’ the quest itself does not in fact fail because providence has brought a whole community’s history of mercy to bear on this moment in favor of The Good. (I think I’ve talked about this notion before.)

In the Sil, by contrast, in spite of best elvish intentions and remorse for evil deeds done, and being caught between loyalty to kin and the memory of Valinor (not to mention the Edain who are drawn into this fate like small fishes oblivious to the net), every single hero in the Sil fails. Everyone fails. Everyone dies. Everyone despairs.

There is only this clue that from one pocket of survivors of Beleriand may come hope in the future .... but we know this only in retrospect. If one knew nothing of Eärendil, the prospect of these survivors would be utterly desperate.

And even in the fate of Eärendil I see a re-echoing of Norse fatalism. You will not wrest anything from the gods - not one minute of life, not one minute of reprieve from a rash and regretted oath, not one Silmaril, not one drop of light from the trees, nothing. There is the world of the gods and the world of everyone else, and whimsy toward everyone else is the prerogative of the gods. Nothing that they claim as ‘theirs’ will you be allowed to keep.

I think there is a lot to be said about Fëanor’s choice (to withhold the Silmarils) and the free will of the oath-takers, but Fëanor is a sort of elvish mirror of the Valar themselves. He is jealous of his own creation and beside himself, so to speak, when it is destroyed. He not more immovable in his oath than Mandos is in his Doom. Given the fact that they are gods, the Valar don’t come off very well in this tale. They are selfish, petulant, moribund, vengeful toward those weaker than themselves, cowardly toward those stronger .... in short, very far from the view of god that Christianity holds (and Judaism).

The Valar do not change their essence in LotR, but there is a sense that Eru is no longer content with their indifference either and intervenes directly, as in the restoration of Olórin. The perspective which the storyteller gives to the reader has now changed and is more consistent with what we know Tolkien’s own beliefs to have been.

I’m not a big fan of Norse myth, personally, and I think that the Sil’s heavy leaning on Doom has been one of the things that has always made it a difficult read for me. As I read these middle chapters, where one hero after another is destroyed by wildest coincidence or by rashest action I feel like saying, “Pullllllease, get a grip.” The iteration of disasters is just so ... implausible. Either only the tragic endings are being told, or the original author’s pessimistic world view has been compressed into one horrifically tragic tale, but it does not resemble in essence the view offered in LotR.

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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

axordil wrote:To be honest, I'm not sure the Noldor were ever capable of Estel, or if they needed it. In Aman it wasn't needed, and in Beleriand it was subsumed in the Doom.
That's an interesting thought, Ax, and I'd be inclined to agree with you, if I were going on just the published Silmarillion. But of course it is one of the Noldor (albeit Finrod the Wise) who makes the distinction between Estel and Amdir in the Athrabeth - and makes it clear that they are capable of Estel. And the omitted portions of the story of Finwë and Míriel make it clear that Estel WAS needed even in Aman, after the Marring of Arda (see some of my comments and quotations in the Finwë and Míriel thread, particularly the quotes that I cite from Manwë).

Jn, I'm only up to chapter 14 in my current project, but I can tell you that the story of the ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin does go back to the original version of the Quenta first written in around 1930, and that the version in the published text is not changed very much at all from the pre-LOTR version. But I think it is important to acknowledge that Tolkien himself did not change this aspect of the story, and there is no indication whatsoever that he ever intended to do so, despite the large amount of work that he did to various aspects of the work, and the other indications of massive changes to other aspects of the mythology that he was considering.

I have to disagree with you that this is less representative of where Tolkien ultimately took his stories - I actually think rather that LOTR is more of departure from his true views. I think that "pessimistic world view" that is reflected in this tale really does reflect Tolkien's basic view of the universe, formed as it was by unrelenting tragedy in his youngest years, losing both his parents at a young age, and experiencing the horrors of trench warfare in the First World War (and losing most of his friends in the process).

But (and I'm sorry to keep harping on this, but I think it is very important), I think that those two missing pieces of the puzzle - the
Athrabeth and the Laws and Customs of the Eldar and the associated work on the story of Finwë and Míriel, particularly the debate of the Valar about their fate, really goes a long way to balancing the darkness of the tale and explaining Tolkien's true intentions. Even as dark as things get, there is still room to hope for healing, to have faith that Eru will eventually allow Arda Remade to be all the greater then the original Arda Unmarred. I've always found it intriguing that the one part of the old testament that Tolkien seems to be associated with is the Book of Job.
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Post by Jnyusa »

Voronwë wrote:And the omitted portions of the story of Finwë and Míriel make it clear that Estel WAS needed even in Aman, after the Marring of Arda (see some of my comments and quotations in the Finwë and Míriel thread, particularly the quotes that I cite from Manwë).
Yes, I read your post about that. :) It is an intriguing story, also straight out of Norse myth (again the Kalavela, iirc); but Tolkien removed the 'low' elements (for in the Norse story the woman is human and when the magic ends her body putrifies), and the discussion of Míriel's attitude toward Indis is Tolkien's own addition, I believe. (Perhaps because of the once-upon-a-time popularity of the question, "Who would you be married to in heaven?" If Indis also went to the Halls of Mandos it would pose an interesting ethical question for the elves, I suppose.)
I have to disagree with you that this is less representative of where Tolkien ultimately took his stories - I actually think rather that LOTR is more of departure from his true views.
This may be. But I consider LotR the 'truer' tale. Though that might just be my preference for the bittersweet ending as opposed to a stage littered with the bodies of failed heroes. No accident, methinks, that Shakespeare situated Elsinore in Denmark.
I think that "pessimistic world view" that is reflected in this tale really does reflect Tolkien's basic view of the universe, formed as it was by unrelenting tragedy in his youngest years, losing both his parents at a young age, and experiencing the horrors of trench warfare in the First World War (and losing most of his friends in the process).
I'm always of two minds how to process this. I think that until very late in his years Tolkien felt that he had failed in his life's purpose. And the weight of that 'doom' rings rather clearly in his writing, to my ear.

But surely by the end he knew he had succeeded. And I think that he must have known that he would succeed even before he actually did succeed in order to have written Frodo as he did. He found his amdir, his way of looking at things which brought some victory out of them.

I do not accept that Tolkien viewed the ultimate reward/punishment of eternity to be the stakes in this game. In other words, I find this explanation unsatisfactory:
Even as dark as things get, there is still room to hope for healing, to have faith that Eru will eventually allow Arda Remade to be all the greater then the original Arda Unmarred.
This sort of belief was always part of Tolkien's makeup, I believe, because of his background. But I believe that he needed more than that, and also that he found it.

You see, Frodo leaves for Valinor a permanently wounded spirit; but also he leaves knowing that he won. The Shire lives even if his feet can never stand there again. This is very different from the ending given to Fingolfin, who dies knowing that all he loves will follow. Looking at these two endings and asking the question, "What was the writer thinking?" - I believe that very different outlooks are revealed.
I've always found it intriguing that the one part of the old testament that Tolkien seems to be associated with is the Book of Job.
Yes. And perhaps that is where he discovered free will. He has more than a theological acquaintance with the topic. ;)

At the risk of leveling a mountain into a molehill, the book of Job exemplifies the difference between the pre-Christian Norse worldview depicted in the Sil and the worldview Tolkien would have acquired in childhood and is more clearly reflected in LotR. In the first view, God's question to Job would be seen as rhetorical. In the second view, it would not.

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Post by Alatar »

I have to admit I'm a little uncomfortable with the whole "Athrabeth is the key to everything" concept. We had the Silmarillion and Lord of the Rings for years and they survived quite happily without the Atharabeth to explain everything. Besides, how much do we really know about the Athrabeth? Perhaps its one of the many things Tolkien wrote and later discarded. I don't deny anyone their right to fully explore the text, but I don't believe that The Lord of the Rings or the Silmarillion needs to be viewed through a prism of Amdir versus Estel.
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Post by axordil »

Alatar-
I am dubious about relying on unpublished material as well, but to play devil's advocate for a minute: the Sil went through more and and more active editorial hands than is normally the case, and Voronwë has shown that in some cases the essential meaning of the stories were changed through omission of material BY THOSE EDITORS. But even with the unpublished material at hand, I think it is dangerous to assume that it is even possible at this juncture to determine what the Sil would have looked like if JRRT had been alive and healthy another five years...or how much it would have resembled a Sil that he produced in the 50s. We have, in a way, almost too much information.

jny--
I long ago came to the conclusion that the stories in the Sil were on the whole a darker lot than LOTR, and that trying to reconcile the tone of the two is as unlikely to work as trying to that of LOTR with The Hobbit. The Sil IS more nakedly Germanic and less Christian even when it touches on the same themes as LOTR, ie redemption and sacrifice. The end of LOTR is bittersweet, the end of the Sil...well, I think it really is JRRT's "Hamlet, Prince of the Noldor." Although it's more like Macbeth or Lear.

Voronwë--
I am OK with Finrod having Estel, since he was, in an odd way, the most "mannish" of the Noldorin princes, and Estel is, I think, a virtue more suited to the Edain than the Eldar. For men, it's all we have, isn't it? But the Noldor had more, much more, and squandered it in their stiff-necked pride and their unforgiving sense of legalistic honor.
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Alatar wrote:I have to admit I'm a little uncomfortable with the whole "Athrabeth is the key to everything" concept. We had the Silmarillion and Lord of the Rings for years and they survived quite happily without the Atharabeth to explain everything.
Of course, before the Sil came out, we had LOTR for many years without the Sil to explain things. That doesn't change the fact that many things that were very vague in LOTR became a lot clearer once more of the back story was available.
Besides, how much do we really know about the Athrabeth? Perhaps its one of the many things Tolkien wrote and later discarded.


Well, if Christopher is to be believed (and I see no reason why he shouldn't) Tolkien expressly stated that the Athrabeth was to be included as an appendix to the Silmarillion. Christopher states also that he included it as a separate part in Morgoth's Ring rather then with other miscellaneious writings because "unlike those it is a major and finished work, and is referred to elsewhere as if it had for my father some 'authority'. It was carefully preserved in folded newspapers (on one of which was the note directing that it be included as an appendix to the Sil. It's pretty clear that it was not something that Tolkien wrote and later discarded.
I don't deny anyone their right to fully explore the text, but I don't believe that The Lord of the Rings or the Silmarillion needs to be viewed through a prism of Amdir versus Estel.
Need to be? Of course not. Any more then LOTR needs to be viewed through a prism of the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen. But I think that Tale greatly illuminates the story, and I definitely thing that the Athrabeth (and the Laws and Customs of the Eldar and other works that I have been referring to) greatly illuminates the Silmarillion, and very much helps make clear that the Silmarillion is much more then a simply retelling of Norse mythology. These works, which were written after LOTR, go along way to bridging the gap in the perspectives revealed in the Sil versus LOTR that Jn has been discussing, and (to me, of course, your mileage may vary) are of absolute critical importance in understanding Tolkien's full body of work as a whole.

Jn, I'll try to address some of the other points that you make later. Suffice it so that I don't entirely agree with you. :)
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Post by MithLuin »

The reason Frodo does not kill Sam is that he has the foresight to divest himself of his sword before he reaches the Mountain (where madness does claim him). That is the sort of decision that no Silm character would ever make - the elves and men of the Elder Days are not Hobbits! They may make suicidal decisions, but they do not surrender.

Yes, the tone is vastly different from LotR. The Silmarillion is very, very dark, and surely the source material has a lot to do with that. Beowulf isn't exactly a happy tale, either! Here, Tolkien is writing about the long defeat, and inexorable doom, and the effects of pride. It is a string of empty victories and tragic flaws. But...and this matters...he specifically stated that tragedy is not the purpose of Fairy Tales. Tragedy is for Drama (or perhaps it would be better to say, Drama does Tragedy best). Faerie Stories are meant to showcase (in his opinion) the Eucatastrophe, the unexpected happy ending. This shows out brighter and more poignant, the darker the story is. Victory not according to plan, but beyond all hope...Estel paying off.

That is why we cannot forget Eärendil. He is...well...the key to it all. And we cannot forget Beren and Lúthien, who do triumph. Mandos is not moved, you say? Seldom, yes...but not never! The Valar are indifferent, just waiting around....but not forever!

Yes, Estel is for Men....and that is why it was the name given to Aragorn as a child. He was the hope of the Dúnedain, though no one could really see how.

Yes, yes, everyone dies - but everyone dies in LotR, too. If you read the Appendices, you get the deaths of Aragorn and Éomer, Merry and Pippin, Rose and Arwen. Sam departs for Tol Eressëa, as do Legolas and Gimli. Lothlórien is deserted... I mean, it all comes to an end. But this isn't sad...and neither are all the deaths in the Silm. Finrod, Beren and Lúthien all meet good ends. Death comes for everyone - it is just a question of how you meet it. Thingol and Eöl meet ignoble ends; Huor dies nobly in battle. Bëor dies of natural old age.

The Silmarillion is very, very dark (in good part because of the defeatist narrative structure), but it is not wholly dark. There are a few stars that shine out above the cloud-wrack. And these points of brightness are all the more poignant, and pierce the heart like swords, because of their surroundings.

[As for fate and free will, it is both intertwined, at all times - when will you figure that out? :P]

Edit: Bright points in the Sil:
  • The creation of snow ;)
    The meeting of Thingol and Melian
    The mingling of the light of the Two Trees
    Battle-Under-Stars
    The rescue of Maedhros by Fingon the Valiant
    Maedhros' acknowledgement of Fingolfin as High King
    The long peace during the Siege
    The founding of Nargothrond and Gondolin
    The feast of Reuniting
    The love of Beren and Lúthien
    Finrod walks with his father and Amarië in Valinor after his death in the dungeons of Tol Sirion
    The foresight of Huor at his death
    The voyage of Eärendil
You could make a list that looks very different, but my purpose was just to point out that the main reason we don't treat these as victories is because the narrator takes the 'long view' and considers final outcomes. The Siege of Angband isn't a victory, because it is eventually broken. True enough - but it did last quite some time! If you are going to take this long view, in which most victories eventually turn to defeat, it is imperative to consider Eärendil. If you are going to ignore Eärendil because he comes at the end, then you must also ignore most of the overhanging doom that colors the seemingly bright passages.
Jnyusa
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Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:04 am

Post by Jnyusa »

Ax wrote:I am dubious about relying on unpublished material as well, but to play devil's advocate for a minute: the Sil went through more and and more active editorial hands than is normally the case, and Voronwë has shown that in some cases the essential meaning of the stories were changed through omission of material BY THOSE EDITORS.
Voronwë wrote:Well, if Christopher is to be believed (and I see no reason why he shouldn't) Tolkien expressly stated that the Athrabeth was to be included as an appendix to the Silmarillion.
Yes, the Athrabeth is more important to the Sil than the Akallabêth, but the Ak is more relevant as a prequel to the story-line of LotR (but not to its meaning, imo). I’m guessing that preserving the narrative connection to LotR was an overriding concern for the publishers. And we’ve seen in other cases that where Christopher made editorial decisions it was not merely a choice between wordings but did excise some of the meanings from the text.

I do think that ... well, when I view Tolkien’s life project as a whole, it begins with the translation of the Kalavela where he discovers the value of national myth and begins to play with this particular myth as the foundation of his ‘myth for England’ idea. But the Kalavela is even darker than the Arthurian tales. If Arthur’s story was too Christianized, the K went too far in the other direction. It was without solid notions of free will and estel which are really quite central to Tolkien’s worldview, imo.

The fact that he never abandoned these doomed Noldor as the centerpiece of the Sil simply tells me that Tolkien never abandoned his conviction that English myth would have to have its starting point in the north (Scandinavia) and not the south (Greece or Rome). But it could not remain there, trading with no one, so to speak. Where Tolkien has elaborated or omitted, my guess is that he has done it in places where he felt the ‘point’ of the myth was different from the point he himself wished to consider.

For example, the story of Míriel and Finwë ... the source tale is not about marriage but about the delusion of a King that death can be forestalled or undone. Tolkien has already made death not an issue for the elves, so the story cannot turn on this but turns instead on this sort of sacramental aspect of marriage which was probably of some interest to Tolkien. The core remains the same - we have a woman who is neither alive nor dead after going through a difficult childbirth, and her husband knows not what to make of this, what to hope for. Initially he hopes for her return but this turns out to be a delusion. But since Míriel cannot actually die in the Sil, the story cannot be about Finwë’s acceptance of death. It becomes instead about the morality of Míriel’s choice and Finwë’s right and his ability to love someone else given this situation. The Finwë-Míriel-Indis triangle become what the story is ‘about,’ even though its source remains in plain sight.

Beyond the fatal flaw with which the story begins - the oath of the Noldor - where the ambivalence of some characters is expressed, it seems to me that every place where Tolkien has departed from his source tale it is to elaborate on the choices that characters have available to them, because this is specifically what is missing from the source material.
Voronwë wrote:Jn, I'll try to address some of the other points that you make later. Suffice it so that I don't entirely agree with you.
Ah, that brings back fond memories of TORC!
Mith wrote:If you are going to take this long view, in which most victories eventually turn to defeat, it is imperative to consider Eärendil. If you are going to ignore Eärendil because he comes at the end, then you must also ignore most of the overhanging doom that colors the seemingly bright passages.
No, I would not ignore Eärendil only because he comes at the end. :) And, as Voronwë has said, Tolkien did not merely rewrite Norse myth. He reworked it to his own ends, the stories of Lúthien and Beren and Eärendil being among those places where a crucial recognition of the centrality of free will is inserted, and the meaning of courage in that context is recognized by Mandos. But while we are standing in the middle of Chapter 13, the story is irredeemably Norse, imo. :)

It may be that Tolkien never felt that the Sil was finished because he never considered it to have been reworked entirely to his satisfaction. I think, for example, that in time there would have been commentary on Fingolfin’s journey to the Halls of Mandos. A conversation between Finwë and Fingolfin might have been written, much like the conversation between Finwë and Míriel. This is the sort of point in the tale - the vain death of Fingolfin - where I suspect Tolkien would have had more to say.

Jn
A fool's paradise is a wise man's hell.
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