The Hall of Fire DoS Review Thread

[Passdagas the Brown]

Sorry to hear about the "meh" feeling, yov. I hate "meh" feelings!

All I know is that I emerged from FOTR, TTT, ROTK and AUJ with a crushing sense of squandered potential, and I emerged from DOS with a smile on my face.

I have completely given up on either a subtle film experience, or something that captures the charm of Tolkien's book. The days of expecting that, or hoping that PJ will rise to that level, are over. So my expectations were altered to essentially face up to a simple fact: Peter Jackson is directing these films, not my ideal directors.

But even in this context, PJ surprised me with the visual inventiveness of the film. This time, because PJ entered full self-indulgent "riff on Tolkien like a solo guitarist" mode, I felt it was a far more artful experience.

IMO, artists and filmmakers should be self-indulgent. Films made in committee, or with two much deference to certain fanbases or audiences, rarely shine.

[Passdagas the Brown]

Okay, I've just found a description that captures DOS perfectly.

Fever dream.

That's what the film feels like to me. A Tolkien-inspired fever dream.

Despite what I am hearing in a number of quarters, this is far from a standard action film. It's like PJ channeled his inner Fritz Lang, and then vomited that energy all over Middle Earth.

[yovargas]

Ok, I'm back....so, my thought is that I have few real quibbles with a scenes in the film. Off the top of my head:

- Beorn was a dull waste of time; the whole thing should have been cut
- Mirkwood is quite cool but much too short; we needed more time here to establish the creepy mood
- Tauriel's romantic whatevers; just no
- the overly complicated and insane molten gold stuff; lots of very confusing and wildly illogical action that has exactly zero story payoff
- the bit with "only a Black Arrow can kill Smaug" feels kinda random; what's so special about that one arrow?

That's about it and none of those are big complaints IMO. I also didn't care for how Galadriel called Gandalf off and didn't quite understand what was happening in that first scene with Radagast. If I'm not sure where they are or what they're doing either I'm an idiot or the general audience must be totally lost. But still, fairly minor quibbles.

The stuff that was good-to-great is much longer. There's lots of fun and inspired and inventive moments. Like that moment with the spider almost stepping on the ring. Or the awesomely batshit insane pinball barrel scene. Or Gandalf's gorgeously terrifying confrontation with Sauron. Or almost any moment Smaug's on screen. PJ gave us a lot of legit, good fun this time around. Thing is...

...he still hasn't managed to give me much reason to care. More than ever the idea that there are humans at the center of all this and that they actually matter gets totally drowned out by all the mad, wild spectacle. Freeman still feels like the only real flesh-n-blood character here and yet, despite more on-screen time and more "hero" moments, he feels very much like a minor character in a story about everything except him. (My non-Tolkien friend I saw it with asked me "Why is it called The Hobbit?" and he's not wrong to ask.) Though the writers made a bit more effort this time around, try as I might I still can't bring myself to care about Thorin or Balin or Bard or Tauriel or Legolas or Kili or even Gandalf - they've somehow managed the impossible task of making me bored of Ian McKellen!

I can't escape the feeling while watching that the story is just that pesky thing you have to get through before you can get to the next spectacle. Cuz the spectacle's really the point here. But at least it was really good spectacle.

(I have a strong suspicion that this one will improve significantly on 2nd viewing for me but I'll probably wait for the blu-ray again.)

eta - ooh, minor-ish note but something that really surprised me in a good way was how often PJ cuts the music entirely. I always wish more directors did this and the silence worked really well in several scenes.

[Elentári]

So I just saw it. And it was definitely a "better" movie than AUJ. No question. I was almost never bored, unlike AUJ. There were very few thigns I actively disliked, unlike AUJ. I am fairly certain that I had "fun" while watching it. But....somehow afterward I can't muster much feeling it beyond "meh". Ah well....

Will try to post more a bit later.

I think I was "Meh" about AUJ...this time DoS definitely rates higher, and I agree with you that there were far fewer things to actively dislike. I don't know if it was because I went in fully prepared for the changes and surprises to come that helped, or seeing it in 2D from the offset, but I certainly got the majority of the way through the film without once getting irritated or taken out of the moment by anything. Even the "love-triangle" and the healing scene were not as bad as I feared, though as I've just posted elsewhere, whilst EL was 'inoffensive' as Tauriel, I really don't think her storyline added anything valuable to the movie. She was fine in Mirkwood but if it weren't for her and Leggy dealing with the Orcs in Laketown, her part could have been written out and the film would have still worked well without her.

I liked Bard's storyline particularly, and can live with the extra sleeze added to the Laketown set up. it was really the end of that, with the Orcs attacking that just didn't work for me. Just overdone and unbelievable that the inhabitants weren't disturbed. Also the CGI wargs in particularly fail for me - their gait is just not realistic.

I thought the change to the opening of the door to need moonlight just so that the Dwarves would (unrealistically) give up was stupid and pointless. Loved the Bilbo-Smaug conversation...hated the wheelbarrow (CGI was terrible) and balancing on Smaug's nose!

What I want more of in the EE is Thranduil and Beorn - Pace and Persbrandt were both brilliant. I was relieved to see that Thranduil was not portrayed as greedily trying to bargain for just a share in the gold, but simply claiming the white gems from the chest that he was owed in the AUJ prologue. Beorn may have more to come in the EE, but actually, the TE leaves him as mysterious as Tolkien intended, so I am happy with that.

So thumbs up on the whole...I will definitely see it again, perhaps in HFR if any of the kids want to see it like that, but 2D is definitely the way to go for me, as I found it really did feel more likely the original trilogy this time around.

[Passdagas the Brown]

yov,

Completely disagree about Beorn. He was the very stuff of nightmare and myth, and I can't wait to get more of him in the EE.

It's funny, because in another mindset (one that prefers subtlety, grace and beauty in film, over frenetic energy and intensity), I would fully agree with your overall assessment of DOS.

But IMO, PJ and company really put a lot of effort into imbuing the "spectacle" with a mix of Harryhausen and Lang-esqe weirdness this time, and even the extended action sequences felt like they were communicating on multiple levels. For example, the zany dwarf-dragon confrontation has a number of visual signatures that speak directly (and without subtlety) to the thematic core of the film:Thorin literally swimming in gold, Thorin standing on the shoulders of a massive gold statue of his predecessor, etc. I felt a deranged yet controlled purpose to the chaos, which elevates it above the action spectacle so many Tolkien fans are currently characterizing it as.

In short, the insanity felt grounded.

Did PJ intend to speak to me on a number of levels with his action sequences? I suppose that's debatable until we listen to the commentaries. But I think he put a lot more thought into DOS than he did with AUJ.

ETA: Oddly, Pace's Thranduil didn't register for me the way I thought he would. Perhaps because he came and went a lot quicker than I expected.

[yovargas]

Completely disagree about Beorn. He was the very stuff of nightmare and myth...

I didn't dislike Beorn himself (I was mostly indifferent) but from a story perspective it adds literally nothing. It's just "Hello, I'm a werebear. Goodbye."


On the molten gold finale - I didn't dislike it because it was wildly illogical (though the gold statue did finally cross the line for me), I disliked it because it was plain confusing. I couldn't figure out what they were trying to do or who was doing what and to top it off, their big weird nonsensical plan doesn't actually accomplish anything. Sure, there were some really kewl images strewn about in there but overall the sequence was a big mess.

Oh, and I'll add to the general chorus on this one - enough already with the super-elves endlessly killing useless orcs. (And I say that as a guy who thought nearly all of Leggy's LOTR stunts were totally kewl.)


But to add a positive note - the way Sauron emerges and becomes The Eye may be one of my favorite visuals across all the movies. That whole scene might have been the biggest highlight for me. Well, maybe after Bombur's pinball barrel.

[axordil]

His ego is just about as large as that statue, his mind and body are riven by gold lust, and he's trying to place himself on the same level as his glorious and larger than life ancestors (I mean he's literally and figuratively, standing on their shoulders!). All that is said without one word of dialogue. Just the image of Thorin, standing on the shoulder of a massive gold statue of a dwarf king.

Did anyone else note how Thorin's profile neatly lined up with that of the great stone dwarf statue (his grandfather?) outside during his one speech before the hidden door?

[Passdagas the Brown]

The funny thing is, all these illogical quibbles you had with the film are part of why I think it works.

Sure, Beorn doesn't add much to the story. But he does add some evocative strangeness to the proceedings, which speaks on a visual (and IMO) deeper level than narrative utility. Same with the dwarf-dragon confrontation. I had no idea what the hell was happening either. But that paralleled Thorin's madness, and Smaug's frenzy, so it all worked for me on a more impressionistic level. And then the symbolism of the giant gold dwarf. Not subtle at all - but still layered.

It was like the Hobbit book was being processed through someone's nightmare.

Basically, the visuals, rather than the narrative, told more of story. It was less a "logical" film, and more an impressionistic one.

Almost Cuaron-esque.

But to add a positive note - the way Sauron emerges and becomes The Eye may be one of my favorite visuals across all the movies. That whole scene might have been the biggest highlight for me. Well, maybe after Bombur's pinball barrel.

I absolutely loved the Sauron reveal - uncharacteristically abstract for PJ! And about Bombur's barrel - I expected that it would fly around like a pinball too - given the Goblintown precedent. But the way it bounced, slowly and heavily, combined with the sound effect, really made it seem a lot more realistic than any of the crazy stuff in AUJ.

[Passdagas the Brown]

His ego is just about as large as that statue, his mind and body are riven by gold lust, and he's trying to place himself on the same level as his glorious and larger than life ancestors (I mean he's literally and figuratively, standing on their shoulders!). All that is said without one word of dialogue. Just the image of Thorin, standing on the shoulder of a massive gold statue of a dwarf king.

Did anyone else note how Thorin's profile neatly lined up with that of the great stone dwarf statue (his grandfather?) outside during his one speech before the hidden door?

Yes. Another nice touch. Reminds me of how the quality of a film is deeply tied up with its visual language, just as much (or moreso) than the textual.

PJ was aiming for more of a "pure film" experience with DOS. A good move.

[axordil]

It's always kind of fun to see what happens when you peel the visual layer of storytelling away from the narrative layer in a movie.

[Passdagas the Brown]

Honestly, I can't wait to watch it with subtitles and the sound off. IMO, it's probably an even better silent movie.

[SirDennis]

Did anyone else note how Thorin's profile neatly lined up with that of the great stone dwarf statue (his grandfather?) outside during his one speech before the hidden door?

Yes... which rendered Balin's line about Thorin acting like his grandfather superfluous.

[Passdagas the Brown]

Did anyone else note how Thorin's profile neatly lined up with that of the great stone dwarf statue (his grandfather?) outside during his one speech before the hidden door?

Yes... which rendered Balin's line about Thorin acting like his grandfather superfluous.

Case in point. It's better as a silent movie.

ETA: Or better yet. All silent except for sound effects. Now that would be interesting...

[axordil]

Well, not so much superfluous as unsubtle. But I'm not convinced most people in the audience can do subtle...

[yovargas]

But that paralleled Thorin's madness...

Then I guess you were buying Thorin's madness more than I was. We don't know Thorin (or literally any character in this movie) nearly well enough for me to be drawn in by this kind of thematic parallel even if I believed it was intentional (which I don't).

[Passdagas the Brown]

But that paralleled Thorin's madness...

Then I guess you were buying Thorin's madness more than I was. We don't know Thorin (or literally any character in this movie) nearly well enough for me to be drawn in by this kind of thematic parallel even if I believed it was intentional (which I don't).

I was hit in the face with Thorin's pride-drenched madness when he ridiculed the undignified manner of his dwarf kinsmens' deaths (clawing and scratching for breath, or something to that effect), and when he essentially called on the dwarves to "burn together." Essentially, it was a near-suicide mission. He was going to attack Smaug, and try to take back Erebor, no matter the cost in lives (including his own). To me, that sold his madness to me. Didn't need much more character development than that, IMO (though I suspect we'll see more in the EE).

[narya]

The previous movie, it was weeks before I could snag someone to go with me, so I was hopelessly late to the review party. This time I just went on my own, right away, so I can jump into the discussion.

Also, last time I did the full sensory experience - IMAX, 3D, high speed, 2nd to front row (because we got there late). The experience was unpleasant because I eyes were juggling all over the place trying unsuccessfully to keep up. This time I went early, got the dead center seat in a non-IMAX, non-3D, non-high-speed, large theatre, and had a much better experience.

First I will respond to others' comments, then add my own:

So PtB, what is the f word you were struggling for, early on in this thread? Was it "flummoxed", "flabbergasted", "fan-boyed", "finnessed", "fatuated"?

Alatar, I did not think the barrel ride was like goblin town. The latter was straight out of Indiana Jones and the Temple of No Gravity. The barrel ride at least felt more like a ride down a rapids (which I've done a few times).

Nin, your review says what I would have said, but you said it better than I could.

And here are my random thoughts. If these have already been mentioned a gazillion times in the anticipation threads, I apologize. I tried to stay out of those.

Too many orcs. I said the same about TTT. If you took out the scenes of everyone fighting orcs, you'd have a movie under an hour long.

Bard's kids are PJ's, right? They are older, but act the same way as they did in LOTR.

Why didn't any of those elvish blades ever glow?

Bilbo's dressing gown robe in the final scenes unfortunately takes me back to his similar attire in Hitchhiker's Guide, which was distracting.

I was also distracted by Luke Evans looking too much like Orlando Bloom with a mustache.

I would have liked the scenes with the dwarves chasing the feasting elves through the forest.

I liked the dwarf-dragon confrontation. In the book, it seemed a little unfulfilling to anticipate the dragon for so long, then have a short conversation, then hear that he went off and got himself killed. There, I said it, the movie was better than the book in that one particular detail. Except for the ridiculous molten gold.

And how could the dragon get enough lift if covered in very heavy gold. That was definitely not credible (though the dragon himself certainly was!).

And what has Bilbo got in his pocketses? The Arkenstone, me thinks.

[yovargas]

That was definitely not credible

If you were to make a list of this movie's definitely not credible moments, this would be on it, but it wouldn't even brake the top 10.

[Passdagas the Brown]

I forgot about my obligatory five-word review! Thanks for the reminder. Here goes:

What the fever-dream was that?

Really, I ate up all the illogical stuff. It all made sense to me in the same way that certain crazy dreams do. Viscerally and emotionally, but not logically.

Perhaps this was a version of events as understood by a crazed Thorin, writing in his Stone Book of Erebor in Aulë's halls?

ETA: Can we get a "Crazy Thorin Riding a Wheelbarrow" emoticon? I've already coined the acronym (CTRAW).

[yovargas]

So maybe your ideal director would not be David Lean but David Lynch?