The Hobbit: The Battle of Five Armies fan reviews... SPOILERS

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Beutlin
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Re: The Hobbit: The Battle of Five Armies fan reviews... SP

Post by Beutlin »

Voronwë the Faithful wrote:And I would largely say the same thing to you that I would to Frelga. I don't think he loves Tolkien the way we do (though some on the production do), though I think he likes Tolkien a lot. But I think that he loves filmmaking, and takes it very seriously, despite his excesses. Certainly as seriously as other great modern directors, like Alfonso Cuaron or Terrence Malick (or even David Lynch, since his name just came up). The fact that I don't care for those filmmaker's style doesn't prevent me from realizing that they are very serious about their art, or respecting them for being so.
I agree with that Voronwë dude. And I find this notion that Peter Jackson is just making films to "entertain" people very dubious. I would say a filmmaker does not have to appear like an intellectual in his interviews to qualify as someone who can make profound works of art. So I strongly disagree with this dichotomy between serious, intellectual filmmakers on the one hand (Cuarón, Malick) and adolescent, immature directors (Peter Jackson) on the other.

Edit: And I should add that I found great value in all of these three filmmakers' works. I would say though that I would easily pick Malick over Cuarón for another Tolkien film. The two Cuarón films I watched were powerful, visually striking movies. But I have not felt the urge to rewatch them over the years. With Malick you get the feeling that his movies becomes better (and different) over time. Whenever you enter a new stage in your life, Malick's films feel different, yet maybe even more profound.
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Post by kzer_za »

Beutlin wrote:I agree with that Voronwë dude. And I find this notion that Peter Jackson is just making films to "entertain" people very dubious. I would say a filmmaker does not have to appear like an intellectual in his interviews to qualify as someone who can make profound works of art. So I strongly disagree with this dichotomy between serious, intellectual filmmakers on the one hand (Cuarón, Malick) and adolescent, immature directors (Peter Jackson) on the other.
Edit: And I should add that I found great value in all of these three filmmakers' works. I would say though that I would easily pick Malick over Cuarón for another Tolkien film. The two Cuarón films I watched were powerful, visually striking movies. But I have not felt the urge to rewatch them over the years. With Malick you get the feeling that his movies becomes better (and different) over time. Whenever you enter a new stage in your life, Malick's films feel different, yet maybe even more profound.
Agreed -Cuaron is talented, but of the three films of his I've seen Children of Men is the only one that really stands out to me (though Gravity certainly has its charms). I love Malick. His highly abstract style would kind of clash with LotR's complexity, though. I think he could make a really good movie about a small segment of Tolkien - like, say, the Scouring of the Shire. Or if copyright permitted it, maybe even Aldarion and Erendis!

I would also say that while PJ's excesses and idiosyncrasies do sometimes overwhelm Tolkien, there are important parts of Tolkien that he does understand. Also, most people can agree that many of the actors and artistic crew have done a great job - and PJ was the one who chose a lot of them. As I recall, he actually went through a lot of work to track down Alan Lee!
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Re: The Hobbit: The Battle of Five Armies fan reviews... SP

Post by Smaug's voice »

Beautlin wrote: I would say a filmmaker does not have to appear like an intellectual in his interviews to qualify as someone who can make profound works of art. So I strongly disagree with this dichotomy between serious, intellectual filmmakers on the one hand (Cuarón, Malick) and adolescent, immature directors (Peter Jackson) on the other.[/size]
Aye.
All i know is that PJ has a hobbit-ish approach to filmmaking while Cuaron and Malik are definitely Elvish.
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Re: The Hobbit: The Battle of Five Armies fan reviews... SP

Post by Telemachos »

"Taking it seriously" and "having fun" are not mutually exclusive comments. :)

Lynch's DUNE is awesome. A travesty, of sorts, but still awesome none-the-less.

Edit: I love Malick, but you'd have to be wildly naive to assume he'd be remotely faithful to his LOTR adaptation. Just look at how THIN RED LINE turned out.
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Re: The Hobbit: The Battle of Five Armies fan reviews... SP

Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Telemachos wrote:"Taking it seriously" and "having fun" are not mutually exclusive comments. :)
Exactly!

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Post by Beutlin »

Telemachos wrote:I love Malick, but you'd have to be wildly naive to assume he'd be remotely faithful to his LOTR adaptation. Just look at how THIN RED LINE turned out.
Malick’s version of „The Fellowship of the Ring“ would probably contain a short, dreamlike prologue to the Shire, and then a two-hour long scene of Frodo wandering through Lórien. But boy, would Malick bring Lothlórien to life! :D
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Post by Necromancer Rising »

Telemachos wrote:"Taking it seriously" and "having fun" are not mutually exclusive comments. :)

Lynch's DUNE is awesome. A travesty, of sorts, but still awesome none-the-less.

Edit: I love Malick, but you'd have to be wildly naive to assume he'd be remotely faithful to his LOTR adaptation. Just look at how THIN RED LINE turned out.
The Thin Red Line is one of my favourite films of all time. I do not know if it is based on a book or not but it was definitely the best anti-war film i have seen since Coppola's "Apocalypse Now"
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Yes, it is adapted from the novel by James Jones (who also wrote "From Here to Eternity").

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Post by Necromancer Rising »

Voronwë the Faithful wrote:Yes, it is adapted from the novel by James Jones (who also wrote "From Here to Eternity").

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Thanks Voronwë. Something to consider buying for the Christmas period. Was the film much different from the book?
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

I've never read the book, but I would guess so, based on Tele's comment.

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Post by Elentári »

Voronwë the Faithful wrote:Elen, it would give me great pleasure if you ended up enjoying this last film. Time will tell.
Oh I'm quite sure I will find much that I will like, particularly in the first 2 thirds of the movie, as seems to be the concensus, but I'm equally sure that the places where PJ goes off the rails will drive me to distraction whilst others desperately root around to justify them in their own minds..

Judging by many of the fan reactions in the TORN user review thread, even some up till now ardent supporters of Jackson's TH have been left confused and disappointed by their first viewing of BoFA.

For example, DanielLB notes
It was a nonsensical movie interspersed with some beautiful, heartbreaking scenes.
And Spriggan calls it a curate's egg of a film:
Just saw BOFA this afternoon and found it a dish that was not more than the sum of its parts.
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Post by Necromancer Rising »

Excuse me Elentári but not all viewers try to interpet what they actually see in the film with the source material on the back of their head,or have preconceived notions of how something should be depicted in order to be successful. On the other hand, there will be always folks who will desperately try to remind us how things play out in the weak Hobbit book (as if we do not know ourselves) and that is the only thing that can make a film successful. I almost always disagree with them for a simple reason. I believe they are trying too hard to point out what is book canon or not as if that can affect the overall quality of a different medium-in our case a cinema movie-. Thankfully, there are sensible folks out there who are totally capable of appreciating,liking,loving,disliking,hating something without (constantly) having the book as a compass to everything they see on screen. Spriggan is the perfect example of what i describe above

Taking Daniel's post to make a generalisation about "many members" doesn't sound quite right to me.

P.S. In case you do not know Spriggan's opinion about the trilogy so far, he considers AUJ to be pretty weak,DOS very strong and judging by his comment he liked BOFA slightly less than DOS. That doesn't indicate disappointment at all. I am sure the next days he will elaborate more on his opinion.
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Re: The Hobbit: The Battle of Five Armies fan reviews... SP

Post by Necromancer Rising »

Oh what did i tell about Spriggan... That is his opinion about the deaths of Durin's sons,an aspect of the film i am 100% sure is your biggest fear(not canon) about the last 1/3 of the film,judging by your posts.

"Thorin's is particularly well done.
There is a terrible inevitability about it, the setting is full of metaphor and the aftermath is handled deftly. A highlight of the film for me.

Fili and Kili both get perfectly good (well, bad but in a good way) exits".
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Post by Passdagas the Brown »

Beutlin wrote:
Voronwë the Faithful wrote:And I would largely say the same thing to you that I would to Frelga. I don't think he loves Tolkien the way we do (though some on the production do), though I think he likes Tolkien a lot. But I think that he loves filmmaking, and takes it very seriously, despite his excesses. Certainly as seriously as other great modern directors, like Alfonso Cuaron or Terrence Malick (or even David Lynch, since his name just came up). The fact that I don't care for those filmmaker's style doesn't prevent me from realizing that they are very serious about their art, or respecting them for being so.
I agree with that Voronwë dude. And I find this notion that Peter Jackson is just making films to "entertain" people very dubious. I would say a filmmaker does not have to appear like an intellectual in his interviews to qualify as someone who can make profound works of art. So I strongly disagree with this dichotomy between serious, intellectual filmmakers on the one hand (Cuarón, Malick) and adolescent, immature directors (Peter Jackson) on the other.

Edit: And I should add that I found great value in all of these three filmmakers' works. I would say though that I would easily pick Malick over Cuarón for another Tolkien film. The two Cuarón films I watched were powerful, visually striking movies. But I have not felt the urge to rewatch them over the years. With Malick you get the feeling that his movies becomes better (and different) over time. Whenever you enter a new stage in your life, Malick's films feel different, yet maybe even more profound.
Lots of strawmen here, as no one has claimed there is necessarily such a dichotomy. I am simply listening to Peter Jackson's words about how he approaches these films. Peter Jackson is perfectly within his rights to focus on entertaining as broad an audience as possible. And he has said on a number of occasions that this is his primary objective. And he's quite good at it. Indeed, I would say that he takes making entertaining films very seriously, though he doesn't take himself so seriously (a good trait, IMO). But I don't understand why I should be berated for taking Peter Jackson at his word. As he says, he focuses on giving his audiences a slice of cake, and he enjoys himself in the process. He is avowedly (and deliberately) a non-intellectual (and not particularly 'artistic') filmmaker, in that regard, and seems to proudly wear that mantle. And by that, I don't mean that HE is not an intellectual or an artist, as I find him to be highly creative and intelligent (judging primarily by the Appendices material on the Hobbit and LOTR DVDs). What I mean is that he prefers a more popularly palatable emotional form of film-making, and that he does not care overmuch about the "intellectuals" or "artists" in the audience. And I find that when he embraces this style of film-making, that he is at his best (as in DOS, IMO). It is when he tries too hard for higher drama or artistry that he fails, in my view, as it usually feels forced.

In short, Peter Jackson is primarily interested in entertainment. He has said so many times himself, and I take him at his word. To me, his LOTR and Hobbit films bear that out as well. And frankly, there's nothing wrong with that approach. He's very good at it.

I just wish that he had tried his hand at adapting books that were less dear to my heart! But I am not bitter about it, as I once was. I admire the man, and find him to be quite an inspiration. In fact, his attempt at adapting Tolkien has inspired me to write a book...

ETA: I also love Malick, and would love to see his take on Middle Earth (and no, I wouldn't expect something that was even remotely 'purist,' at least on a literal level). But such a film would never, ever get financed. That's why I focus on Cuaron, who's probably my second-favorite living filmmaker. I think Cuaron has that very unique ability to combine high artistry with popular appeal.
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Post by Smaug's voice »

It's been released here today, but I won't be going till the 20th atleast.

I do expect to like it (even, love it) It's been a while now, that I see PJ's ME-saga as not coinciding with Tolkien's.

Still, i just wish that Legolas wasn't there in this trilogy at all... :(
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

PtB, I think you have (not maliciously, or deceptively) taken certain isolated comments that Jackson has made somewhat out of context in order to confirm your own opinion. He certainly is interested in making films that entertain, but that in no way means that he does not take the craft (the art) if filmmaking very, very seriously.
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Post by Elentári »

Actually, my point was that whilst many of us will go into the movie with certain expectations depending on how we have received the previous instalments, and it is unlikely that the majority will leave with a differing outcome, I found it noteworthy that some people who have been staunch admirers of Jackson's efforts so far have reported not having the experience they expected. I mentioned Spriggan in particular because he/she is often quick to defend much of the criticism offered towards the movies. Nusilver also gave a quite negative response, though apparently having seen the film a second time found it a more positive experience.
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Post by Elentári »

Oh, and the common criticisms about the last third of the movie are not just about canon and/or Fili's death - which, I am surprised no one has commented on yet, was obviously inspired by Tolkien's account of Gelmir's cruel death in front of his brother Gwindor, which sparked the premature start of hostilities at the Nirnaeth Arnoediad....
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Post by Alatar »

If they had blinded him and cut off his hands before beheading him I'd say it was inspired by that. As it played out, I saw the connection but honestly felt it was more a case of me projecting connections that weren't intended.
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Post by Alatar »

Also, what are the specific criticisms you refer to and I'll see if I agree. I dislike the contention that some of us are bending over backwards to be apologist about what we liked. I have no interest in convincing anyone. It's all subjective and I have absolutely no doubt that some of you, Elen in particular, will hate it. That doesn't mean I'm wrong to have enjoyed it, or that I'm a PJ apologist.
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