The Hall of Fire DoS Review Thread

[kzer_za]

There are some pretty neat details in Minas Tirith...they talk about the "rat trapper's shop" in the appendices, for example. But not much of it is in the movie itself, I agree, and Gondor could have been developed. I don't miss the farmlands, Pelargir, Dol Amroth, Imrahil, Beregond, and so on that much individually, but all the stuff left out does add up.

And it bugs me how incompetent the Gondor soldiers seem - even the conscripted farmers in Helms Deep put up a better fight. While they do okay in the initial siege exchange, here aren't very many shots of a Gondor grunt getting the upper hand on an orc.

[Passdagas the Brown]

Right. Again, the set and props folks did their job. PJ didn't, IMO.

[axordil]

I thought much the same: the military of Gondor seemed to be worn down, or perhaps cowed by the Nazgûl a bit more effectively than in the books, or something. The EE makes them seem as if they did the job at Osgiliath under Boromir, though.

It's fallout, I think, from the expansion of the importance of Rohan vs Isengard in the second film, where perhaps too much time is spent developing interest in the plight of the people there...and thus Gondor gets glossed over by comparison in the third film.

[Passdagas the Brown]

In many ways, movie Bard and Bain did for Laketown what Beregond and Bergil may have done for Minas Tirith. They gave the city and its people an identifiable and relatable human face, and showed us the inner, day to day workings of a city preparing for a siege. For me, I can not overstate the importance of that. I am completely taken in by Laketown in DOS, while I never accepted Minas Tirith as anything more than a set.

If you don't create a believable secondary world, and you lose the illusion, you've lost the audience. Well, at least you've lost me!

[yovargas]

I don't think you're entirely wrong, even though I love Minas Tirith, but I do think that you're getting such a detailed Laketown because TH was hugely expanded (timewise) while LOTR was fairly compressed. Not that I would've minded the LOTR trilogy being 2 hours longer but it wouldn't have been very practical.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

In many ways, movie Bard and Bain did for Laketown what Beregond and Bergil may have done for Minas Tirith. He gave the city and its people an identifiable and relatable human face, and showed us the inner, day to day workings of a city preparing for a siege.

I quite agree with this. It also provided another really nice moment for Balin, when he is trying to charm Bard into giving them a ride, and then his face fell when Bard responded to his comment about Bard's wife being a beauty. Such excellent acting!

[kzer_za]

Film Laketown has some of the feel of the book version of Bree, with Bill Ferny, worrying about horses and other logistical matters, and sneaking around town trying to avoid the spies hired by the Nazgûl.

[Passdagas the Brown]

Speaking of Bree, I like to think that the thinner of the two prospective assassins stalking Thorin at the start of DOS is somehow related to Bill Ferny. Such a sinister face. Great casting in that scene, IMO.

Back to the topic - I really do think that a set of 6 LOTR films would have done wonders for giving us a richer, more believable world. Either that, or a TV series with four or five nine-ten hour seasons.

The main benefit of a three-film Hobbit is PJ's ability to flesh out the world. He wastes too much time on action spectacle for my tastes, but a one or two-film Hobbit, in the LOTR-prequel mode that PJ has chosen, would likely have been even less satisfying.

On the other hand, a more stylized, "storybook" Hobbit film, which hews closely to the tone and economic storytelling of the book, could be achieved satisfactorily in one film. But such a film has long since been abandoned.

[yovargas]

On terms of pure story-telling, TV has been ahead of movies for a few years now IMO, which makes sense given the extra time. A TV series would undoubtedly be the best way to go if anyone ever chooses to give LOTR a shot again some time in the distant future.

[Passdagas the Brown]

On terms of pure story-telling, TV has been ahead of movies for a few years now IMO, which makes sense given the extra time. A TV series would undoubtedly be the best way to go if anyone ever chooses to give LOTR a shot again some time in the distant future.

Need it be so distant? There is a generation of 11-18 year olds who never saw the LOTR trilogy, but are watching the Hobbit.

In a decade or less, this demographic would be an ideal audience for a LOTR TV series.

Though we'll be in for a purist firestorm if HBO gains the rights. Galadriel and Frodo in the glade at night might proceed a bit differently in such a production...

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Speaking of Bree, I like to think that the thinner of the two prospective assassins stalking Thorin at the start of DOS is somehow related to Bill Ferny. Such a sinister face. Great casting in that scene, IMO.

The character is in fact listed in the credits as Bill Ferny, Sr.

[Lhaewin]

My daughter and I agreed that we could have easily done without Tauriel. The story would have worked without her turning up imo. Not sure about Thranduil. I think I need another viewing to make up my mind about him.

The pub-scene in Bree was very similar to the one in FOTR. I am glad that the rest of the film wasn't a compilation of slightly altered scenes from the LOTR movies.

My favourite characters in DOS are Bilbo and Balin. Balin is such a great counterbalance to Thorin. Also loved the conversation between Bilbo and Smaug.

Why did PJ have Thorin dangle in front of Smaug's face?
Thinking of the drinking contest between Gimli and Legolas, I was wondering why the Elvish guards could get drunk - or at least it looked as if they were drunk.

[axordil]

In many ways, movie Bard and Bain did for Laketown what Beregond and Bergil may have done for Minas Tirith. They gave the city and its people an identifiable and relatable human face, and showed us the inner, day to day workings of a city preparing for a siege. For me, I can not overstate the importance of that. I am completely taken in by Laketown in DOS, while I never accepted Minas Tirith as anything more than a set.

If you don't create a believable secondary world, and you lose the illusion, you've lost the audience. Well, at least you've lost me!

I won't argue with you there. For all the lovely tableaux in Minas Tirith, some even with echoes of Caravaggio, the only characters we know are Denethor and Faramir. The visuals can cover up a lot of storytelling gaps, but they can't wholly replace characters.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I really love how the town folk start to mutter about the dwarves and the prophecy, and the parallel with Bard's seeking and finding the tapestry in dread. And then Thorin tapping into the sentiment of the town. Really excellent storytelling.

[kzer_za]

And then the Master siding with the dwarves because it helps him politically against Bard. Of course, after Smaug dies he will change his position to the opposite...will be interesting to see how it plays out. Laketown is full of great stuff. Even the extras have lots of character.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

And very consistent with the book, even if not exactly word for word.

[N.E. Brigand]

How did movie-Laketown's Master get his job? Was he elected, as in the book?

[Voronwë the Faithful]

While it is not made explicitly clear, the implication is that he was elected, since Alfrid (who does not seem at all like Grima to me, despite many comments saying he was Grima-lite), says the townspeople might call for an election, and perhaps not allow him (the Master) to run in it.

[kzer_za]

I think it's because Alfrid is underhanded and oily like Wormtongue. The fact that he is a bad guy's henchman rather than someone manipulating a good guy is a big difference, though (well, Grima was Saruman's henchman, but you know what I mean). Also, while Grima had a sycophantic side, it's much more of a major trait for Alfrid. You can tell he's chosen to tag along with the Master and suck up to him as much as possible for his own gain.

[axordil]

One of the other interesting thing I liked about Laketown--it was (as might be expected of a trade center on the borders of "civilization") less monochrome ethnically than any other location we've seen in the movies.