Osama bin Laden

[Teremia]

That's how I feel, too, Nin.

[axordil]

Of course, the lack of a body does keep the possibility open that he's alive and at a black site somewhere being interrogated. DNA can be taken from the living, too.

Do I believe that? No. Would it shock me? No.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Reports are that the SEALs went in with orders to kill.

That's not true, at least according to Obama's chief counter-terrorism advisor, John Brennan (who should know):

Obama aide: We would have taken bin Laden alive

I hope that is true. Other people are claiming otherwise, and it seems the emerging consensus is that they were hypothetically willing to take him alive, but knew he would never surrerender, so it was effectively a kill mission.

eg:
http://www.newser.com/story/117651/osam ... ation.html

I'm sure that they thought it would be likely that they would have to shoot to kill. What those who say that he shouldn't have been killed are really saying is that they think he should have been left alone altogether, because that was the only other realistic option. People are certainly entitled to that opinion, but I profoundly disagree.

[vison]

If there was one thing I knew, without waiting until it happened, it would be that bin Laden would be called "a coward".

[Sunsilver]

One of bin Laden's wives was shot dead when a male used her as a human shield. One site I read said it was Osama who did this.

If this is true, I would certainly qualify that as a cowardly act.

[Teremia]

It's not a fabulous deed on the other side either, shooting a woman to get the husband behind her.

[Lhaewin]

It shows how much human and especially female life is really worth, when push comes to shove. Neither side hesitates to sacrifice lives, but they both claim to strive for high aims and it's all for the "greater good".

[Pearly Di]

Here is my very unprocessed gut reaction from this morning -

for ten years I've wanted America to get this man, and now America has.

I no more care about Osama bin Ladin being shot by US Navy Seals than I cared about the Romanians executing Ceaucescu back in 1989. Bin Ladin's death was swift and merciful ... unlike many who died on 9/11.

My reaction IS tempered by the news that the US military were trying to take him alive.

And I am glad none of this was public (Saddam Hussein's death was a demeaning spectacle).

[Holbytla]

If there was one thing I knew, without waiting until it happened, it would be that bin Laden would be called "a coward".

Yeah and it was a poor choice of words on my part. I know he was on the field in the Afghan battle against the USSR in the 80's and I don't think the term is totally accurate for someone like him. Yet I cannot imagine asking someone else to blow themselves up for a cause while I sat in the background. He may not have been a coward, but he certainly is guilty of cowardly acts. When I think of soldiers, I think of people like John Basilone, or any of thousands of Japanese or American soldiers during WW II, not bin Laden.


Teremia wrote:

"It's not a fabulous deed on the other side either, shooting a woman to get the husband behind her. "

No it isn't at all, but sometimes there are choices to make where there is no good option. History is replete with circumstances of soldiers flinching at shooting a woman, or worse, a woman holding a child only to find themselves and their buddies getting blown to bits by a hidden bomb or grenade. I am sure the poor soldier that had to make that split second decision will spend the rest of his life debating with himself and living with loads of guilt. All for a few hundred bucks a month because his country said so.

If it were me in that situation? One never knows how they would react in situations, but I hope to God I would have pulled the trigger.

All in all I much prefer a peaceful world where killing is not warranted, but I don't live in that world.

[yovargas]

What those who say that he shouldn't have been killed are really saying is that they think he should have been left alone altogether, because that was the only other realistic option.

This is very much my view as well.

[Frelga]

And mine. A world where we could realistically put Bin Laden on trial is a world in which Bin Laden doesn't function. Everyone associated with the trial would be in grave danger, and so would be thousands of innocent people worldwide, who would risk taken hostages as terrorists blackmailed the U.S. to release Bin Laden. And for what? Under what possible conditions could he be acquitted by rational people? Where could you find an impartial jury?

Eichmann, afaik, did not stand at the head of a large organization ready to murder on his behalf. He was tried for past crime, not killed in a battle which was equally retribution and an effort to prevent future crimes.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

It's not a fabulous deed on the other side either, shooting a woman to get the husband behind her.

Teremia, respectfully, I have to ask, what would you have had the soldiers do in that circumstance? I'm far from a military expert (thank Eru!) but I would guess that their choice in that point would have been to press forward, or likely be killed themselves. Would you have had them sacrifice their own lives -- and the success of their mission -- in order to avoid hurting or killing someone who was put in that position by their target?

[Teremia]

We don't know any of the details, so we just can't know what was or wasn't possible.

My guess is that not a lot of effort was put into organizing things to take Osama ALIVE, because they didn't want to have the responsibility for him, alive. Where would they put him? How would they conduct a trial? I'm sure they wanted him dead -- and wanted that enough to think of people in the way as just side-effects, collateral damage, or whatever the term is now.

I don't like people being killed in my name and with the help of my money (so with my unwilling support). Not just in this instance, but in general. It makes me feel ill, to be honest.

I don't like people being turned into killers in my name and with the help of my money, either. I don't like the thought of the men who carried out this mission feeling victorious OR feeling bad about the extra people who got killed. I don't like the thought of the kind of rationalizations they will surely be encouraged to use to feel good about what they did (heroes, getting rid of a microbe, courage, she got in the way and there was nothing you could do).

The human mind is super good at finding ways to justify the bad things we do! It's all too rare that people feel true remorse for the wrongs they commit -- that's my general observation, and I don't except myself from that judgment.

If we really confronted the violence committed in our names (and with our money) -- not just in this instance, but over the last hundred years, say -- if we really allowed ourselves to REALIZE the humanness of each of the people burnt at Hiroshima, for instance, or the people who have died in Iraq or the kids bombed by drones in Afghanistan -- I think the burden would be simply too staggering for us.

I'm not saying Americans have some kind of monopoly on violence, or anything like that. It's our whole dang species that breaks my heart.

[Sunsilver]

Also, in a situation like this, it is possible the woman was shot unintentionally. The man could have grabbed her just as the Seal was pulling the trigger. In tense situations like this with gunfire and explosions going off, it can be difficult to know just what happened.

It's nice to think 'our side' wouldn't shoot a woman, but then again, that could be wishful thinking.

[vison]

And the whole story could be false. I doubt that we'll ever know. It is also entirely possible that the woman was quite willing to die with bin Laden, or even in his place. We cannot assume that she was "just a woman" with no mind of her own.

[Sunsilver]

Okay, it's being reported as fact: Bin Laden wife served as human shield: US official

Whether this is true, or we just want to believe it's true to make him more of a monster, I honestly don't know.

[Holbytla]

I know my posts at times come off on the side of the warmonger or person who would rather kill than be killed, but surprisingly I find myself more in tune with Teremia, philosophically speaking, than anyone connected with the military, even though I spent 6 years in the military.

I do think that as a species and series of societies that we fail and have failed to rise above the blood thirsty level of the animals that we are purportedly better than and more intelligent than. And I don't feel this is the case of one or two events that has made me feel this way. Especially when we can sit back and rally our support without ever having to have our asses out there on the line and fearing kill or be killed or making tough decisions. Especially when I think that any taking of human life is nothing more than a waste.

I do believe with all my heart we suck at times at being humans when it really counts. History should have taught us that countless times but apparently we have failed to notice or are too hell bent on survival.

The thing that it comes down to is that it isn't the US with all of its knowledge of history, or the Obama administration with all of the resources at hand that has to pull the trigger when the time hits. Those tough decisions are made thousands of miles away in the context of today's world.

More often than not, it is a highly trained kid in their mid-20's that is doing what he has been taught to do. It all comes down to that poor young soul that has to decide between taking the life of an innocent woman and a despot or risking the potential lives of another 3000 or 10,000 innocent souls if you don't act.

Nobody, not the President or the Homeland Security or any Intel sects of the world is more qualified to make that decision spot on, nor can any department ever make that decision sitting in a bunker 10 thousand miles away any better than the poor soul that has to sacrifice himself and his life.

We can sit back and play Monday morning quarterback all we want, but we have the luxury that the people on the front lines do not have. We can question the decision making that got us into this in the first place and we can question humanity of all things and how we got here, but there is no way we should have to question the people or the missions that actually enacted the final ordeal.

There is no practical way to enact a mission with guidelines, without unnecessarily endangering the lives of servicemen. There just isn't. The intel is never exact and even if it were extremely accurate, you cannot account for other humans and their actions.

Yeah it is in my thinking to rightfully judge us as a people and a country and say that we failed to meet standards, but to me it is way out of line to judge the people in the line of fire or to suggest that plans were not up to snuff.

No two situations are alike and all of them are exceedingly dangerous at best. I would much rather be safe than sorry and I would much rather risk the lives of a handful of people than thousands more.

We have been hunting the murderer of thousands of people for fifteen years or better. I would think that there would be some leeway with regards to the specifics of the ops, as sad as the are, in exchange for some peace and knowledge that at least one deranged murderer is out of comission.

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Great post, Holby. I really can't imagine anyone saying it any better. Thank you.

[yovargas]

As unfortunate as it is that it had to be like this, it is because of Osama, not us, that it had to be like this.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

While that is true (and at the risk of sounding like Rev. Wright), if the U.S. (and allies) had not made some of the choices that were made over the years, the circumstances that allowed Bin Laden to become relevant would never have occurred.