[topic regretted] (was Jews against anti-Christian ...)

[Ethel]

Okay, I'm confused, and I ask Jn and Whistler for help in understanding. Who exactly is the enemy here, in your opinion? Who is it that is persecuting Christians? (In the US, I mean. I am aware that there is terrible persecution going on in countries where Christians are a minority - including several that are generally regarded as allies of the US - and I view it with horror.) Are we just talking about interpretations of the Establishment clause which have prohibited religious displays on government property, and retailers who have chosen to greet people with "Happy Holidays" rather than "Merry Christmas"? Or is there more to it? Or is it that you view these things as harbingers of worse to come?

[Jnyusa]

[removed]

[Ethel]

Well, with respect to interpretations of the Establishment clause, I believe we will see dramatic changes with the two new members joining the Supreme Court. (I do expect Alito to be confirmed.) Perhaps that will ameliorate your concerns. I also expect to see Roe v Wade overturned within the next year or so, which will be a huge victory for many Christians (and non-Christian opponents of abortion as well, of course). That's the trend, or I should say one of the trends, that I see in progress. Frankly, this will not thrill me. But I accept it. This is a democracy, and the guy who wins the election gets to appoint justices.

Retailers, of course, have different motivations than Supreme Court justices. They are only influenced by the profit motive, and the trend toward greeting customers with "Happy Holidays" rather than "Merry Christmas" is apparently inspired by a wish to be inclusive of non-Christian customers. WalMart would greet customers with "Live long and prosper" or "Welcome and well met" if they thought it would increase sales. If enough people dislike the change, retailers will feel it in their profits and they'll go back to "Merry Christmas." If they don't... well, that will mean that most people don't care, and if that's the case what choice do we have but to accept it? (The jury is still out on this. The campaigns and boycotts have not yet been proven or disproven effective. But I still see a lot of traffic at my local WalMart.)

It's not possible - not in the US, anyway - to force retailers to be 'respectful' of religion. It's possible to prove to them they would increase sales by doing so, but only if that's factually true. They only care about the numbers.

[JewelSong]

WalMart would greet customers with "Live long and prosper" ... if they thought it would increase sales..

Wouldn't that be just awesome if they did!

Imagine all those Walmart greeters, in their spiffy blue aprons, giving the Vulcan sign as you walked in the door.

I would so shop there.

[Ethel]

WalMart would greet customers with "Live long and prosper" ... if they thought it would increase sales..

Wouldn't that be just awesome if they did!

Imagine all those Walmart greeters, in their spiffy blue aprons, giving the Vulcan sign as you walked in the door.

I would so shop there.

There are definite possibilities, Jewel. Think of the advertising slogans! "WalMart - the Trekkie mulitnational!" And I think they need to outfit the greeters in sky blue tunics with the Starfleet logo, don't you? And possibly with pointy ears as well? :D:D

But... getting back on topic... the Vulcan sign is in fact a traditional Jewish gesture of blessing. Leonard Nimoy, a Jew, suggested it and it was adopted.

I kid you not. Linky: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulcan_salute

[Sassafras]

Bad title
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Here's the correct url.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulcan_salute

Just sayin', Ethel.

[Ethel]

Bah! I have fixed it in my post.

I suffer from "over edit" disease and in this way often infect my posts with... well... that kind of stuff.

[Jnyusa]

[removed]

[Sister Magpie]

Is "happy holidays" actually considered a sign of a bad thing anywhere? To me it seems like a good habit to get into--like when Americans post on mbs and need to get into the habit of not assuming everyone is American so, for instance, referencs to the First Amendment may not apply. Actually, I just saw a post somewhere else about a fictional character not being African-American which received a snarky reply of "Keep telling yourself that." The person was implying that the other poster was denying that this character was black, when in fact the person was simply testily pointed out that the character was not American.

Anyway, to me that's the point of happy holidays. I think I've been saying that as a default for almost 20 years now--since I went to places where I didn't know what everyone was celebrating. The trend to "Happy Holidays" seems a completely positive one--it's a greeting that embraces a number of holidays that take place at the same time that people are celebrating. So you can give strangers seasons greetings without wondering if you've just wished someone the wrong holiday--not a huge faux pas, but enough to make "happy holidays" useful.

-m

[Ethel]

A Supreme Court that was too homogeneous and ideologically motivated would pose the an equally worrisome problem in the opposite direction.

Well, they tend to go back and forth, don't they? Depending on the appointer. I do think we'll see a reversal of the rulings against religious displays on government property in the near future. And I do think Roe v Wade will be overturned. That's just... democracy in action. How can I object? I don't. If and/or when the majority is closer to agreeing with me, there will be change. But it may never happen, and if it does not I am obliged to accept that. I can't say I believe in democracy when it produces results I like, and then not respect results I don't like.

[Ethel]

Is "happy holidays" actually considered a sign of a bad thing anywhere? To me it seems like a good habit to get into--like when Americans post on mbs and need to get into the habit of not assuming everyone is American so, for instance, referencs to the First Amendment may not apply.

Yes. There is a movement afoot - O'Reilly of Fox News is a chief proponent - to boycott stores that greet customers with Happy Holidays. Jerry Falwell is involed too. Here: linky

They believe it is disrespectful to Christians.

[nerdanel]

I can't say I believe in democracy when it produces results I like, and then not respect results I don't like.

I'm not saying that an individual right exists here (in the case of abortion, or in any other given case). However, if one exists, then one can still support democracy, while not believing that individual rights should ever be subject to the fickle, changing whims of a majority.

We created a democracy, and somewhere along the way, people thought this meant that the majority ruled in everything, at all times. Given the Wizard's First Rule (in abbreviated form, "People are stupid"), I'm often glad that this is not the case.

[Frelga]

Reminds me of a Sam Vimes take on Democracy. It appeared to have deffinite possibilites to him, until he realized that while he would have a vote in every decision, there was nothing to prevent Nobby Nobbs from having an equal vote. At that point drawbacks immediately became apparent.

[Ethel]

I can't say I believe in democracy when it produces results I like, and then not respect results I don't like.

I'm not saying that an individual right exists here (in the case of abortion, or in any other given case). However, if one exists, then one can still support democracy, while not believing that individual rights should ever be subject to the fickle, changing whims of a majority.

We created a democracy, and somewhere along the way, people thought this meant that the majority ruled in everything. Given the Wizard's First Rule (in abbreviated form, "People are stupid"), I'm often glad that this is not the case.

Heh. I think I like you, tp.

But here's how I see it: what the Court gave, the Court can take away. In a matter as divisive as abortion, the only real way to secure a 'right' is through the ballot. I do expect that Roe v Wade will be overturned, sooner rather than later. It will be interesting. We'll find ourselves in a situation where, in one state, it's a crime punishable by the death penalty. And in the state next door it won't be a crime at all.

I'm so into the "People are stupid" thing.

Edited to add: it occured to me that the last sentence could be read in a way I didn't intend it. I certainly did not mean it to refer to anyone here, with the possible exception of myself.

[Sister Magpie]

They believe it is disrespectful to Christians.

That's the kind of childish self-absorbtion that should result in some coal this year. It's like complaining that the stranger in the store greeted you with "Hello and welcome!" without using your name. And then claiming they should just greet everyone with "Hello and welcome, Bill or Jerry!" so you'll feel personally validated. Any Larry's or Michelle's who are puzzled by the greetings can just deal with it.

-m

[Ethel]

They believe it is disrespectful to Christians.

That's the kind of childish self-absorbtion that should result in some coal this year. It's like complaining that the stranger in the store greeted you with "Hello and welcome!" without using your name. And then claiming they should just greet everyone with "Hello and welcome, Bill or Jerry!" so you'll feel personally validated. Any Larry's or Michelle's who are puzzled by the greetings can just deal with it.

Well, I can't say I exactly disagree with you, but this is something very close to the heart of a large number of Americans. Calling them foolish does no good. Some of them may well be fools, but a lot of them aren't. Most of them. How we get out of this box, I don't know. But I'm pretty sure it won't be by telling people who care passionately about what retail greeters say that they should just suck it up and get over it.

[Sister Magpie]

Well, I can't say I exactly disagree with you, but this is something very close to the heart of a large number of Americans. Calling them foolish does no good. Some of them may well be fools, but a lot of them aren't. Most of them. How we get out of this box, I don't know. But I'm pretty sure it won't be by telling people who care passionately about what retail greeters say that they should just suck it up and get over it.

I guess they have a point--there was a while where Christmas was actually banned in America.

By the Puritans.

It just seems like the people who are treating them like fools are people like O'Reilly who points to whatever person is supposed to be out to get them and insists everyone sic 'em. I mean, what drives me crazy is that while you're right that saying they should suck it up and get over it won't help, that's often the attitude they claim to represent, standing up for the real Americans who shouldn't have to compromise.

-m

[Frelga]

When I first heard that story about "stealing Christmas", I began counting days until it would be blamed on Jews. I didn't even run out of toes.

A post over on B77 quoted an article by someone who says he is Jewish, pointing to "Jewish judges and ACLU activists" as the root of the problem. The article proceeded to remind all Jews that they live in a Christian country and so it behooves them "to show gratitude" . So - from a few unnamed figures to the entire Jewish community with all its wide range of political and religious opinions in a space of a few paragraphs.

Of course the article had to be written by a Jew, who cannot be accused of anti-Semitism. Then the "Christian" pundits can pick it up and quote it and use it. The scenario is not unfamiliar.

Here's what I see happening. In the past several years leadership of the U.S. became concentrated in the hands of a fairly narrow group. Now this group dominates all three branches of government. The results look disastrous to many Americans. Whether it is fair to blame the Administration for all our problems is a question for another thread. Right now, the President's approval ratings are at about 40-44% (depends on the poll) and only 22% strongly approve of his overall performance. At the same time, high ranking Republican officials have been involved in scandals and even indicted.

The one group of staunch supporters is the very socially conservative. This group will support pretty much any policy decision as long as their priorities of outlawing abortion and same-sex marriage are promoted. And even among this group the support is slipping.

This is the group that needs to be energized if the next election is not to be a total disaster for those in power even in spite of the inept Democratic leadership. There is no rational basis on which their support may be garnered. The promise to keep the country secure that worked so well in the last election has been shown to be hollow, as the war in Iraq drags on with no end in site and Katrina proved just how unprepared the country is to handle any large-scale disaster.

So the spin doctors are turning up the emotion with their call of "stealing Christmas", which inexplicably links a department store clerk uttering "Happy Holidays" to abortion and same-sex marriage.

For such emotional appeal to be effective, the loyal must be directed toward a visible enemy. We already have Islamic terrorists in the role of the external enemy, but we still need an internal enemy, which must be entirely unsympathetic. Democrats are the first target, but too many of them can counter such accusations by pointing to their unstained record as devout church-goers.

Which brings us to Jews.

[vison]

That's a good post, Frelga. And you have nicely and neatly articulated the point, too. I wasn't going to post in this thread, but I feel I have to post in support of what you are saying.

The article in question offended me so deeply I was nearly incoherent. Thank you for seeing through the fog of obfuscation and irrationality.

[Whistler]

I wish to express disgust and outrage that anybody would twist this matter into a justification for anti-Semitism.

I hope it wasn't even necessary for me to do that.