Trump Charged With 37 counts of Espionage, Obstruction and related crimes

[Frelga]

Thanks! I tried googling socks case and got ads for underwear storage.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

For heaven's sake.

FBI searches Biden’s Wilmington home and finds more classified materials

[N.E. Brigand]

The lesson here is that if you find a classified document in your possession, and you have no reason to believe the government even knows it's missing, you should quietly destroy it. Do not do the "right thing" and turn it over to the government, and do not agree to allow the FBI to search your home (there was no warrant for yesterday's search; it was completely voluntary on Joe Biden's part), because you'll only suffer for your honesty.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I disagree. The lesson is that doing the right thing is the right thing to do whatever the consequences.

[N.E. Brigand]

And I'm sure Joe Biden agrees with you. I hope the rest of us don't suffer because he did the right thing. We might also be the victims of his good deeds! Or here's a likelier possibility: millions of Ukrainians could die if this scandal leads to a Republican becoming president in 2025.

Anyway, NBC reports that the search wasn't even requested by the Dept. of Justice. Instead, the White House asked DOJ to search Biden's home.

[RoseMorninStar]

I disagree. The lesson is that doing the right thing is the right thing to do whatever the consequences.

I agree, although it is a shame that the focus is on that the documents are not where they should be (which is bad enough) and not on the refusal to return them and the insistence that such documents belong to Trump personally. Obviously there is a problem with document protocol in the White House.

[N.E. Brigand]

Marcy Wheeler, who has been generally sympathetic to Joe Biden, now offers a harsher analysis of how the timeline of document discovery could bode ill for Biden.

[RoseMorninStar]

That it is coming out in drips & drabs is bad. I cannot help but wonder if that is intentional on someone's part.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Marcy Wheeler, who has been generally sympathetic to Joe Biden, now offers a harsher analysis of how the timeline of document discovery could bode ill for Biden.

I blame Obama. If he hadn't chosen Biden as his running mate, none of this would matter.

[N.E. Brigand]

Marcy Wheeler, who has been generally sympathetic to Joe Biden, now offers a harsher analysis of how the timeline of document discovery could bode ill for Biden.

I blame Obama. If he hadn't chosen Biden as his running mate, none of this would matter.

I seem to recall Joe Biden saying in late 2008 that Barack Obama had offered him the choice of being Vice President or Secretary of State. There's a "what if?" for you!

[N.E. Brigand]

To do a proper investigation and determine what the usual practice for past presidents and vice presidents is, Special Counsels Smith and Hur probably should also examine all the files taken to post-administration offices and residences of Mike Pence, Barack Obama, Dick Cheney, George W. Bush, Al Gore, Bill Clinton, Dan Quayle, George H.W. Bush, Ronald Reagan, Walter Mondale, Jimmy Carter, Nelson Rockefeller, and Gerald Ford.

I'm completely serious: we need to know what the baseline is in order to determine whether Biden's and Trump's document practices are unusual.

I agree.

And here we go!

CNN: "Classified Documents Found at Mike Pence’s Indiana home."

(I didn't know Pence lived in Carmel. The high school marching band in Carmel deservedly won the Bands of America grand national championship last fall.)

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Also, on a lower level.

[N.E. Brigand]

Meanwhile, one commentator notes that former Vice President Mike Pence, in the course of saying that he would never mishandle classified documents, doesn't entirely rule out the possibility that he could have mishandled classified documents. As this person echoes my call yesterday for a much broader examination into others who probably made similar mistakes, a question is posed: "I wonder whether we'll ever hear about them and classified US materials, or whether off in the distance the roar of paper shredders is heard?"

Per today's report, classified documents were found at Pence's Indiana home "last week," so I guess that was after he said he wouldn't have mishandled classfied documents.

[RoseMorninStar]

I bet Pence didn't claim they belonged to him and refuse to give them back..

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I would bet that no documents will ever be found at any of Obama's residences. Just like he remains the only president not to have a special counsel or equivalent appointed to investigate him during his term of office since at least Reagan.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I think that this news makes it slightly more likely that Trump will eventually get charged. Despite the difference between Trump's situation and Biden's situation, it seemed to me that Biden's situation made it much less likely that Trump would get charged, simply because it would lead to the assumption that Biden was treated differently than Trump (even though he should be). But with Pence essentially being in the same situation as Biden, that balances out and leaves Trump clearly different than both of them.

[RoseMorninStar]

It should be noted that there are different types of classified documents; USA Today article, Top secret, secret, and confidential. Some documents have 'expiration' dates and, while marked classified, may no longer be a national security issue. While that may not matter to Joe Q. Public, I would imagine it matters regarding the law/National Security.

[River]

Also, sometimes material gets classified long after it's generated, so some of the material found in Trump's, Biden's, and Pence's homes might not have been classified when they took it home but is considered classified now (this was also the case with Hillary's emails). Basically, the system is complicated, there're some valid arguments that the government is too trigger-happy about declaring stuff classified, elected officials and political appointees are poorly trained in how to handle the material, and in general people are set up to fail. Pence and Biden most likely ended up where they are by accident. Trump's case is a bit different though, both in terms of volume and how he and his team behaved when asked to give the stuff back.

I am not surprised Pence turned out to have papers he wasn't supposed to have. I'd be surprised if he did it intentionally because he doesn't seem the type, but I'm not surprised he or his staff screwed up. Like I said above, the system seems to set people up to fail. I think all the former VPs should be checked in on, and past Presidents too. This smells systemic.

[elengil]

Also, sometimes material gets classified long after it's generated, so some of the material found in Trump's, Biden's, and Pence's homes might not have been classified when they took it home but is considered classified now (this was also the case with Hillary's emails).

I *believe* the issue is that these documents are marked. Now what they're marked with is certainly a question, but I don't see how they could be marked if they were taken prior to being classified.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Also, sometimes material gets classified long after it's generated, so some of the material found in Trump's, Biden's, and Pence's homes might not have been classified when they took it home but is considered classified now (this was also the case with Hillary's emails).

I *believe* the issue is that these documents are marked. Now what they're marked with is certainly a question, but I don't see how they could be marked if they were taken prior to being classified.

Yes, that is correct.