Trump Charged With 37 counts of Espionage, Obstruction and related crimes
Re: Trump and Biden Classified Document Investigations
Thanks! I tried googling socks case and got ads for underwear storage.
If there was anything that depressed him more than his own cynicism, it was that quite often it still wasn't as cynical as real life.
Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!
Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!
- Voronwë the Faithful
- At the intersection of here and now
- Posts: 46135
- Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:41 am
- Contact:
Re: Trump and Biden Classified Document Investigations
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
-
- Posts: 6961
- Joined: Sat May 26, 2007 1:41 am
- Location: Cleveland, OH, USA
Re: Trump and Biden Classified Document Investigations
The lesson here is that if you find a classified document in your possession, and you have no reason to believe the government even knows it's missing, you should quietly destroy it. Do not do the "right thing" and turn it over to the government, and do not agree to allow the FBI to search your home (there was no warrant for yesterday's search; it was completely voluntary on Joe Biden's part), because you'll only suffer for your honesty.
- Voronwë the Faithful
- At the intersection of here and now
- Posts: 46135
- Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:41 am
- Contact:
Re: Trump and Biden Classified Document Investigations
I disagree. The lesson is that doing the right thing is the right thing to do whatever the consequences.
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
-
- Posts: 6961
- Joined: Sat May 26, 2007 1:41 am
- Location: Cleveland, OH, USA
Re: Trump and Biden Classified Document Investigations
And I'm sure Joe Biden agrees with you. I hope the rest of us don't suffer because he did the right thing. We might also be the victims of his good deeds! Or here's a likelier possibility: millions of Ukrainians could die if this scandal leads to a Republican becoming president in 2025.
Anyway, NBC reports that the search wasn't even requested by the Dept. of Justice. Instead, the White House asked DOJ to search Biden's home.
Anyway, NBC reports that the search wasn't even requested by the Dept. of Justice. Instead, the White House asked DOJ to search Biden's home.
- RoseMorninStar
- Posts: 12897
- Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 11:07 am
- Location: North Shire
Re: Trump and Biden Classified Document Investigations
I agree, although it is a shame that the focus is on that the documents are not where they should be (which is bad enough) and not on the refusal to return them and the insistence that such documents belong to Trump personally. Obviously there is a problem with document protocol in the White House.Voronwë the Faithful wrote: ↑Sun Jan 22, 2023 4:11 pm I disagree. The lesson is that doing the right thing is the right thing to do whatever the consequences.
My heart is forever in the Shire.
-
- Posts: 6961
- Joined: Sat May 26, 2007 1:41 am
- Location: Cleveland, OH, USA
Re: Trump and Biden Classified Document Investigations
Marcy Wheeler, who has been generally sympathetic to Joe Biden, now offers a harsher analysis of how the timeline of document discovery could bode ill for Biden.
- RoseMorninStar
- Posts: 12897
- Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 11:07 am
- Location: North Shire
Re: Trump and Biden Classified Document Investigations
That it is coming out in drips & drabs is bad. I cannot help but wonder if that is intentional on someone's part.
My heart is forever in the Shire.
- Voronwë the Faithful
- At the intersection of here and now
- Posts: 46135
- Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:41 am
- Contact:
Re: Trump and Biden Classified Document Investigations
I blame Obama. If he hadn't chosen Biden as his running mate, none of this would matter.N.E. Brigand wrote: ↑Mon Jan 23, 2023 7:24 pm Marcy Wheeler, who has been generally sympathetic to Joe Biden, now offers a harsher analysis of how the timeline of document discovery could bode ill for Biden.
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
-
- Posts: 6961
- Joined: Sat May 26, 2007 1:41 am
- Location: Cleveland, OH, USA
Re: Trump and Biden Classified Document Investigations
I seem to recall Joe Biden saying in late 2008 that Barack Obama had offered him the choice of being Vice President or Secretary of State. There's a "what if?" for you!Voronwë the Faithful wrote: ↑Mon Jan 23, 2023 9:49 pmI blame Obama. If he hadn't chosen Biden as his running mate, none of this would matter.N.E. Brigand wrote: ↑Mon Jan 23, 2023 7:24 pm Marcy Wheeler, who has been generally sympathetic to Joe Biden, now offers a harsher analysis of how the timeline of document discovery could bode ill for Biden.
-
- Posts: 6961
- Joined: Sat May 26, 2007 1:41 am
- Location: Cleveland, OH, USA
Re: Trump and Biden Classified Document Investigations
And here we go!Voronwë the Faithful wrote: ↑Thu Jan 12, 2023 11:22 pmI agree.N.E. Brigand wrote: ↑Thu Jan 12, 2023 10:50 pm To do a proper investigation and determine what the usual practice for past presidents and vice presidents is, Special Counsels Smith and Hur probably should also examine all the files taken to post-administration offices and residences of Mike Pence, Barack Obama, Dick Cheney, George W. Bush, Al Gore, Bill Clinton, Dan Quayle, George H.W. Bush, Ronald Reagan, Walter Mondale, Jimmy Carter, Nelson Rockefeller, and Gerald Ford.
I'm completely serious: we need to know what the baseline is in order to determine whether Biden's and Trump's document practices are unusual.
CNN: "Classified Documents Found at Mike Pence’s Indiana home."
(I didn't know Pence lived in Carmel. The high school marching band in Carmel deservedly won the Bands of America grand national championship last fall.)
- Voronwë the Faithful
- At the intersection of here and now
- Posts: 46135
- Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:41 am
- Contact:
Re: Trump and Biden Classified Document Investigations
Also, on a lower level.
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
-
- Posts: 6961
- Joined: Sat May 26, 2007 1:41 am
- Location: Cleveland, OH, USA
Re: Trump and Biden Classified Document Investigations
Per today's report, classified documents were found at Pence's Indiana home "last week," so I guess that was after he said he wouldn't have mishandled classfied documents.N.E. Brigand wrote: ↑Fri Jan 13, 2023 9:02 pm Meanwhile, one commentator notes that former Vice President Mike Pence, in the course of saying that he would never mishandle classified documents, doesn't entirely rule out the possibility that he could have mishandled classified documents. As this person echoes my call yesterday for a much broader examination into others who probably made similar mistakes, a question is posed: "I wonder whether we'll ever hear about them and classified US materials, or whether off in the distance the roar of paper shredders is heard?"
- RoseMorninStar
- Posts: 12897
- Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 11:07 am
- Location: North Shire
Re: Trump and Biden Classified Document Investigations
I bet Pence didn't claim they belonged to him and refuse to give them back..
My heart is forever in the Shire.
- Voronwë the Faithful
- At the intersection of here and now
- Posts: 46135
- Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:41 am
- Contact:
Re: Trump and Biden Classified Document Investigations
I would bet that no documents will ever be found at any of Obama's residences. Just like he remains the only president not to have a special counsel or equivalent appointed to investigate him during his term of office since at least Reagan.
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
- Voronwë the Faithful
- At the intersection of here and now
- Posts: 46135
- Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:41 am
- Contact:
Re: Trump and Biden Classified Document Investigations
I think that this news makes it slightly more likely that Trump will eventually get charged. Despite the difference between Trump's situation and Biden's situation, it seemed to me that Biden's situation made it much less likely that Trump would get charged, simply because it would lead to the assumption that Biden was treated differently than Trump (even though he should be). But with Pence essentially being in the same situation as Biden, that balances out and leaves Trump clearly different than both of them.
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
- RoseMorninStar
- Posts: 12897
- Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 11:07 am
- Location: North Shire
Re: Trump and Biden Classified Document Investigations
It should be noted that there are different types of classified documents; USA Today article, Top secret, secret, and confidential. Some documents have 'expiration' dates and, while marked classified, may no longer be a national security issue. While that may not matter to Joe Q. Public, I would imagine it matters regarding the law/National Security.
My heart is forever in the Shire.
Re: Trump and Biden Classified Document Investigations
Also, sometimes material gets classified long after it's generated, so some of the material found in Trump's, Biden's, and Pence's homes might not have been classified when they took it home but is considered classified now (this was also the case with Hillary's emails). Basically, the system is complicated, there're some valid arguments that the government is too trigger-happy about declaring stuff classified, elected officials and political appointees are poorly trained in how to handle the material, and in general people are set up to fail. Pence and Biden most likely ended up where they are by accident. Trump's case is a bit different though, both in terms of volume and how he and his team behaved when asked to give the stuff back.
I am not surprised Pence turned out to have papers he wasn't supposed to have. I'd be surprised if he did it intentionally because he doesn't seem the type, but I'm not surprised he or his staff screwed up. Like I said above, the system seems to set people up to fail. I think all the former VPs should be checked in on, and past Presidents too. This smells systemic.
I am not surprised Pence turned out to have papers he wasn't supposed to have. I'd be surprised if he did it intentionally because he doesn't seem the type, but I'm not surprised he or his staff screwed up. Like I said above, the system seems to set people up to fail. I think all the former VPs should be checked in on, and past Presidents too. This smells systemic.
When you can do nothing what can you do?
- elengil
- Cat-egorical Herbitual Creativi-Tea
- Posts: 6248
- Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:45 pm
- Location: Between the Mountains and the Sea
Re: Trump and Biden Classified Document Investigations
I *believe* the issue is that these documents are marked. Now what they're marked with is certainly a question, but I don't see how they could be marked if they were taken prior to being classified.River wrote: ↑Tue Jan 24, 2023 8:34 pm Also, sometimes material gets classified long after it's generated, so some of the material found in Trump's, Biden's, and Pence's homes might not have been classified when they took it home but is considered classified now (this was also the case with Hillary's emails).
The dumbest thing I've ever bought
was a 2020 planner.
"Does anyone ever think about Denethor, the guy driven to madness by staying up late into the night alone in the dark staring at a flickering device he believed revealed unvarnished truth about the outside word, but which in fact showed mostly manipulated media created by a hostile power committed to portraying nothing but bad news framed in the worst possible way in order to sap hope, courage, and the will to go on? Seems like he's someone we should think about." - Dave_LF
was a 2020 planner.
"Does anyone ever think about Denethor, the guy driven to madness by staying up late into the night alone in the dark staring at a flickering device he believed revealed unvarnished truth about the outside word, but which in fact showed mostly manipulated media created by a hostile power committed to portraying nothing but bad news framed in the worst possible way in order to sap hope, courage, and the will to go on? Seems like he's someone we should think about." - Dave_LF
- Voronwë the Faithful
- At the intersection of here and now
- Posts: 46135
- Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:41 am
- Contact:
Re: Trump and Biden Classified Document Investigations
Yes, that is correct.elengil wrote: ↑Tue Jan 24, 2023 10:29 pmI *believe* the issue is that these documents are marked. Now what they're marked with is certainly a question, but I don't see how they could be marked if they were taken prior to being classified.River wrote: ↑Tue Jan 24, 2023 8:34 pm Also, sometimes material gets classified long after it's generated, so some of the material found in Trump's, Biden's, and Pence's homes might not have been classified when they took it home but is considered classified now (this was also the case with Hillary's emails).
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."