Escaping the Echo Chamber

[yovargas]

As a Hispanic dude, I will say that I absolutely hate that "latinx" term, and would say I even find it vaguely insulting. I can't speak for all Latin people, of course, but I do believe most Spanish speaking people would agree that it is a stupid term. It is a very small thing, and certainly not the kind of thing that would change elections by itself, but I do agree that it is part of a broader cultural perspective that many people are rejecting.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Thank you, Yov. I agree that by itself it is a small thing, but I think it is symptomatic of a much larger issue with regard to the relationship between white progressives and people of color.

Sent from my VS988 using Tapatalk

[River]

This Nov. 5 article by Matt Yglesias attempts to get some on the left recognize what may be one of their own bubbles:

Trump’s gains with Hispanic voters should prompt some progressive rethinking

A Democratic Congressman from Arizona, who is Hispanic and who won his race, was asked on the day after the election what lessons he could offer Democrats in other districts, where the Latinx vote shifted towards Republicans this year.

He responded that the first thing they should do was to stop using the term "Latinx." Few Hispanics even know that term, and even fewer (just 3%) use it to describe themselves. It's been imposed on the community by academia, and is mostly used by white liberals. As Yglesias says, that alone doesn't explain the shift, but it's probably a symptom of a broader misunderstanding.

Interesting. I can't say I'm a fan of "Latinx" myself. It's always felt contrived. But I fell into thinking that was the correct term. I'm perfectly happy to ditch it.

[N.E. Brigand]

This Nov. 5 article by Matt Yglesias attempts to get some on the left recognize what may be one of their own bubbles:

Trump’s gains with Hispanic voters should prompt some progressive rethinking

A Democratic Congressman from Arizona, who is Hispanic and who won his race, was asked on the day after the election what lessons he could offer Democrats in other districts, where the Latinx vote shifted towards Republicans this year.

He responded that the first thing they should do was to stop using the term "Latinx." Few Hispanics even know that term, and even fewer (just 3%) use it to describe themselves. It's been imposed on the community by academia, and is mostly used by white liberals. As Yglesias says, that alone doesn't explain the shift, but it's probably a symptom of a broader misunderstanding.

Interesting. I can't say I'm a fan of "Latinx" myself. It's always felt contrived. But I fell into thinking that was the correct term. I'm perfectly happy to ditch it.

When I first encountered "Latinx," it was in a written setting, and having never heard it spoken before, in my mind I was hearing it as "la-TINKS," and it took a while to stop thinking of it that way. But even the "correct" pronunciation is problematic.

Most Americans pronounce "Latina" and "Latino" in an approximation of the Spanish pronunciation, saying "la-TEEN-uh" and "la-TEEN-oh".

Accordingly, shouldn't "Latinx" be pronounced "la-TEEN-ek-ees" or "la-teen-EK-ees"? ("X" in Spanish is "equis," right?) Instead of "LA-tin-EKS"?

[Sunsilver]

So, what the heck's wrong with Latino/Latina?? Why the change, especially when it's to something they don't call themselves?

[N.E. Brigand]

So, what the heck's wrong with Latino/Latina?? Why the change, especially when it's to something they don't call themselves?

The argument is that Latino/Latina excludes transgendered people.

[Túrin Turambar]

So, what the heck's wrong with Latino/Latina?? Why the change, especially when it's to something they don't call themselves?

The argument is that Latino/Latina excludes transgendered people.

Wasn't the issue also that the male form is used as the default (as is common in Romance languages)? Latino people, Latino culture, etc.

[RoseMorninStar]

I believe there are a myriad of issues. Not only is gender problematic but, as mentioned in the Vox article, Cubans do not appreciate being merged with Puerto Ricans, Hispanics, etc.. Maybe yov could shed more light on this issue.

[elengil]

I believe there are a myriad of issues. Not only is gender problematic but, as mentioned in the Vox article, Cubans do not appreciate being merged with Puerto Ricans, Hispanics, etc.. Maybe yov could shed more light on this issue.

... not to talk over Yov, but of course they don't. People don't like their identities being erased.

[yovargas]

I have never heard any Hispanic/Latino person say they were bothered by being considered a group. If there are those who feel that way, I would wager they are a miniscule minority, mostly stemming from academia.

[Frelga]

State of California uses the term Hispanic.

I have no insight into the mindset of Hispanic voters, but if it's really a matter of nomenclature, then I don't see how it's more attractive to vote for the guy who used the term "vermin".

[River]

I think the nomenclature discussion started because it's a symptom of a larger disconnect between political leaders trying to win Hispanic votes and Hispanic voters. And maybe symptomatic of a disconnect between activists and the group they are trying to represent. And maybe symptomatic of a disconnect between social scientists talking about groups and the groups they are talking about.

[RoseMorninStar]

elengil, I take your point. However, it is the crux of acceptance/inclusiveness that others will feel their identity is being erased. That is why White Christian Evangelicals back Trump, is it not? It's about 'fear of other' and loss of identity (and supremacy/dominance). Building one's self/group up at the expense of another. Trump stokes that fear and some embrace that because it helps their group maintain the status quo. I imagine Native Americans, who are of many diverse tribes, dislike being lumped into one term and possibly feel it erases their identity but sometimes it's just not practical, possible, or even desirable to divide us up into every imaginable grouping. It's a difficult and convoluted topic.

I drew my earlier thoughts/comments from the Vox article several posts back. Although I have a few good friends/extended family members who are Puerto Rican, I have virtually no interaction with the Hispanic/Latino culture at large and none where various Latin cultures come together as they do in Florida (for example). I live in an almost totally homogeneous area, as such I am very aware that my experience and knowledge on the subject is extremely limited and I hesitate to weigh in because I'm sure to unintentionally step in the muck. However I can attempt to understand something larger than my immediate surroundings/experiences.

In the article, Andra Pino-Silva (a left-wing activist self-described as a 'Queer Cubana') posits:

(...) that by aligning with Trump, Cuban Americans are specifically reaching for a kind of aspirational white status. In this view, Cuban Americans don’t vote for Trump despite his racism. Rather, “Trump’s appeal is the appeal of white supremacy.”

And

The "Cuban Vote" is not the "Latino Vote." Cubans have been sold a narrative that they have a guaranteed path to whiteness, and many will sell out every other minority to get it. Trump's appeal is the appeal of white supremacy.

I have no idea whether this is considered an 'academia' or wide-spread point of view but the bottom line is that there are those who, whether by race, creed, gender, economic status, or any other division we can think of, will sell out any other 'other' to dominate/elevate themselves.

I watched an old movie a few days ago, 'The Education of Little Tree'. It was about a young boy growing up in 1930's Depression-era Appalachia. He was part Native American (Cherokee). He had befriended a young white girl who was the daughter of (extremely poor) migrant workers. She had no shoes. The little boy's grandmother made her a pair of shoes, moccasins, as a gift. When Little Tree gave the girl the shoes she was thrilled and thought they were lovely but when her father saw them he beat her, had her take off the moccasins and then the father threw them at Little Tree and told him they didn't need any "stinkin' charity from no Injin". Even though the Father was about as far down on the social/economic ladder as one could go, he obviously wanted to feel superior to someone.. at their expense.

There are some who feel that to elevate others elevates us all. There are those who do not recognize that as a 'win-win' situation. Those types of people (I would include Trump in this type) a person is either a winner or a loser. There is nothing else.

x-posted with both Frelga & River.

[Frelga]

Maybe. We are talking about a population of 52 million of whom 47 million are citizens, and they can't be treated as as a monolith.

X-posted with Rose. Someone on Twitter pointed out that Florida Cubans are often the descendants of the landed class who were dispossessed by Castro, and their alignment is different from, say, descendants of Mexican migrants.

[Frelga]

For those interested in the topic: This was retweeted by the historian Kevin Kruse, so I suppose there's some merit to be found.

Hey, folks! This Tuesday the 17th at 6:00, join us for @gerry_cadava's talk and discussion based on his latest book, #TheHispanicRepublican! Since it's on Zoom, anybody can attend virtually: email sandoval@psu.edu for the link. @PSULiberalArts @PSULatinoCaucus @McCourtneyInst https://t.co/rYjPp5fTVu

[N.E. Brigand]

For those interested in the topic: This was retweeted by the historian Kevin Kruse, so I suppose there's some merit to be found.

Hey, folks! This Tuesday the 17th at 6:00, join us for @gerry_cadava's talk and discussion based on his latest book, #TheHispanicRepublican! Since it's on Zoom, anybody can attend virtually: email sandoval@psu.edu for the link. @PSULiberalArts @PSULatinoCaucus @McCourtneyInst https://t.co/rYjPp5fTVu

Sorry I missed this post before; sounds like that would have been interesting.

A former coworker of mine is named Kevin Kruse, but he is not the Princeton historian referenced above, nor any sort of historian at all.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Pretty much everyone is a historian of some sort.

Just sayin'.

Sent from my VS988 using Tapatalk

[Frelga]

Except Dinesh Sousa, who decidedly isn't.

[elengil]

"everyone is a historian"

Some people are just revisionist historians.

[Inanna]

Pretty much everyone is a historian of some sort.

How?