Rogue One - Spoilers

[Sunsilver]

I actually was more uncannied by Leia than by Tarkin.

My only complaint about Leia's character in the original movies was that she didn't blaster Han's butt when he was being disrespectful to her.

She did a pretty good job of blastering him with her tongue, though!

[Frelga]

And since then, we've had Jyn and Rey. I was watching Rogue One, and actually had the thought: I wonder when we are going to again have a strong MALE lead in one of these movies. Much like Disney, it seems like Star Wars has a determined tendency toward strong female leads right now. Not that that's bad, necessarily, since the pendulum was stuck in the other arc for so long. But I do sense a pattern.

So I got thinking about Disney's reputation for producing girl-oriented films, and I was procrastinating doing something actually important, and the Wikpedia was right there. I made a breakdown of Disney and Pixar movies by whether the lead is male or female. The determination is based on the title character, or by whose story is central to the film. I left out some films such as 101 Dalmatians because um, puppies? and Hunchback of Notre Dame because technically the lead character is male but the merchandise is Esmeralada's, and some because I haven't seem the film and have no clue, like Atlantis. I sorted Lilo and Stitch with girls because although the little alien appears to be treated as male, the lead human character is a girl.

The score came up to 22-12 in favor of boys.

Which also brought home the point that when the main character is not human - Cars, Monsters, Inc., Wall-E - it is inevitably treated as a male. Taking out movies where the main character is not human-shaped at any point (e.g., excluding Bambi but keeping Toy Story), the score is 14-12 boys. Or 15, if you say that the main character in Ratatouille is the boy and not the rat.

Here are my lists

Male
1 Aladdin
2 Pinocchio
3 Dumbo
4 Lion King
5 Jungle Book
6 Bambi
7 Peter Pan
8 Hercules
9 Tarzan
10 Robin Hood
11 Black Cauldron
12 Treasure Planet
13 Brother Bear
14 Up
15 Despicable Me
16 Finding Nemo
17 Monsters Inc.
18 Toy Story
19 Ratatouille
20 Cars
21 Wall-E
22 Sword in Stone

Female
1 Snow White
2 Cinderella
3 Beauty and the Beast
4 Mulan
5 Alice in Wonderland
6 Lilo and Stitch (?)
7 Princess and the Frog
8 Pocahontas
9 The Little Mermaid
10 Tangled
11 Frozen
12 Brave

[yovargas]

If you're doing that kind of comparison for Disney, I think you should exclude Pixar since Pixar is really it's own thing. Disney owns them but they aren't Disney movies (much like Marvel). Also, Despicable Me isn't Disney, it's Universal. Also, you missed quite a few such as The Emperor's New Groove and Wreck-It Ralph:

All Disney Theatrical Animated Features

Just sayin'.

[anthriel]

And surely many of those "male lead" movies are a bit older? My point was that the more recent swing seems to be toward female leads. Peter Pan (1953) is not recent.

It was fun to look those up, though, and notice how many of those much older films ALSO had a female lead: Mary Poppins (1964), Alice in Wonderland (1951), Cinderella (1950)... shoot, even Disney's first movie, Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs (1937) [note: I originally spelled that as "dwarves!"]. Although "strong" female lead might be debatable, at least it wasn't totally male dominated.

So if the point is that more recent films are swinging toward a strong female lead, I think your lists might actually support that idea. Not that I'm going to do a bunch of research on it, mind you. It's just been my perception.

The films on your lists that I have actually seen fairly recently are such:


Male
4 Lion King
14 Up
15 Despicable Me
16 Finding Nemo
17 Monsters Inc.
18 Toy Story


Female

4 Mulan
6 Lilo and Stitch (?)
8 Pocahontas
9 The Little Mermaid
10 Tangled
11 Frozen
12 Brave[/quote]

Since we're discussing it, here's a little feature on how they achieved Tarkin specifically. An actor with very similar features (you may recognise him as the Minister for Magic from Harry Potter!) who studies Cushings delivery and style, a facial cast of Cushing from "Top Secret" and painstaking point by point translation of facial moves.

I just wish they would have used that actor. He does look a lot like Peter Cushing. That jangly "something's wrong with him!" perception took me out of the story.

My only complaint about Leia's character in the original movies was that she didn't blaster Han's butt when he was being disrespectful to her.

Yeah, I agree with Sunny here. She definitely put that cocky SOB back on his heels a few times. I just loved Leia.

[Alatar]

Incidentally, there's a petition to have Leia recognised as an official Disney Princess, which I disagree with. Disney bought the Star Wars license, they didn't create Leia.

[Primula Baggins]

I disagree, too. It just doesn't feel right. She's not that kind of princess. And she stopped being one in Episode 4--nothing left to be princess of.

[narya]

I stand by my thesis that strong women in movies are still anomalies. I will take this to another thread.

For the sake of the continuity of this thread, and for the benefit of those who do not yet want to enter a spoiler thread, I invite you to cut and paste your posts there.

[Smaug's voice]

Never understood the Star Wars craze. I thought most of those films were pretty bad except for ESB and Force Awakens.
But...I loved Rogue One.
It's the first SW film that I actually could connect on an emotional level. And it at least improves A new hope, which I find to be pretty outdated and most overhyped.
RIP Chirrut Imwe

[anthriel]

Smaug's voice, may I inquire as to your age? And your general level of geekiness, on a scale of 1 to 10, perhaps?

I was 13 years old in 1976, when the movie eventually titled "A New Hope" came out. Most people I knew who were geek-oriented at all were impressed with that film at the time... well, more than impressed. It rocked our world.

But maybe you had to be there.

[Primula Baggins]

I was there! I saw it ten times in theaters before it ended its run, including one time I sat through it twice in a row because I could. It very precisely did rock my world. I was eighteen. (Geek point: it came out on May 25, 1977.)

In those days, once a movie was gone from theaters, it was gone. Videotape wasn't a commercial medium yet, and most people didn't have cable, so the only hope of seeing it again was if it showed up on network TV, where it would be hacked up for commercials. So, I soaked up the showings while I could.

The next time I did that with a movie was Fellowship of the Ring.

[Smaug's voice]

I'm 23.
I don't know about a scale rating But I love many of the Star Trek films like WoK, Voyage home, Undiscovered country, first contact etc. Also seen all Indy Jones films (contrary to popular opinion, also thought Raiders was overrated ) , the first two Alien films, Prometheus and Blade Runner.
And of course, loved LotR and liked the Hobbit movies.

So how much of it is due to nostalgia? I mean, I do understand A new hope being the pioneer for the whole Star Wars that followed, but much of it looks terribly dated. For instance, the highly anticipated fight between Vader and Obi Wan looks sort of lame, with them just poking each other with their sabers. That scene was a huge disappointnent to me.
ESB did improve on the swordfights though.

[Primula Baggins]

That was the first light saber battle ever, and what they could become hadn't yet been envisioned. The weapons were heavy and fragile, and the budget was low, so they had to use them carefully.

It did foreshadow something I never did like about the later, kewler battles: stupid moves that make the one moving vulnerable for no advantage in the fight. That moment when Obi-Wan spins completely around. The moves like that got only longer and more spectacular (and even more ridiculous) in later fights.

Best lightsaber battle for my money: RotJ, at the moment when Vader threatens Leia and Luke loses it. From that point on to Vader's defeat, it looked like a real fight. No acrobatics, no twirlies. Intense, and with some of the best music in all eight films.

[yovargas]

For instance, the highly anticipated fight between Vader and Obi Wan looks sort of lame, with them just poking each other with their sabers.

Sort of lame?? I've seen more exciting action scenes on C-SPAN.

Though to be fair, I'd already been spoiled by amazing fight scenes like this one:

[Frelga]

Someone on the Internet asked why the Jedi don't fight by using the Force to turn the opponent's lightsaber off.

[Dave_LF]

Though to be fair, I'd already been spoiled by amazing fight scenes like this one

That looks like a "before they were famous" clip of a fight between Captain Mal and Fez from That 70s Show.

[Túrin Turambar]

Someone on the Internet asked why the Jedi don't fight by using the Force to turn the opponent's lightsaber off.

Because their opponent would use the Force to stop them (likewise, if their opponent tried to use the Force to pick them up and bounce them like a basketball or otherwise interfere in the fight). That said, there's dozens of moments throughout the films where, if you actually stop and think about it, someone should have used the Force to do something. That includes the lightsaber battles.

[Smaug's voice]

That was the first light saber battle ever, and what they could become hadn't yet been envisioned. The weapons were heavy and fragile, and the budget was low, so they had to use them carefully.

,

True. That's why it has value for being the grandaddy of all saber battles and of sentimental value to all who saw the film in the 70s. But purely as cinema, I found it much overrated. Which is just the way I feel about the whole of ANH, personally.

I do agree about the spinning around move in the prequels was ridiculous. For me as well, RotJ had the best lightsaber battle along with the climactic fight in Force Awakens.

[Alatar]

Someone on the Internet asked why the Jedi don't fight by using the Force to turn the opponent's lightsaber off.

My cousin used to play Wheelchair Basketball. A favourite tactic for newbies who didn't have sports wheelchairs was to flick on one of their brakes...

[anthriel]

I'm 23.

Hah! I knew it!

I don't know about a scale rating

The fact that you are here means that you are at least a 7. Minimum.

But I love many of the Star Trek films like WoK, Voyage home, Undiscovered country, first contact etc.

I think the first few Star Trek films are generally junk, although the one with the whales (I can't remember the names, I believe it to be PTSD) probably wouldn't have been bad had I seen it first. Like the "first" 3 Star Wars movies, they are so bad that they actually offend me.

Also seen all Indy Jones films (contrary to popular opinion, also thought Raiders was overrated ) ,

One and three are great. Two and four are awful.

the first two Alien films, Prometheus and Blade Runner.
And of course, loved LotR and liked the Hobbit movies.

Liking these movies adds two points on the geek scale for you. So you are at least a nine.

So how much of it is due to nostalgia?

I wonder about the word nostalgia. It's not that I have fond memories of the movie, per se, a sepia-toned, indulgent and gentle nod at the past... I have lightning sharp memories of how it made me FEEL. How... different it was. To see the dust and nuts and bolts of their world. To walk with them into that cantina and see all the crazy shapes and sounds and creatures. And even-- even the first moments, when that music just SMACKS you upside the head and you read the "crawl" for the first time, and then Princess Leia's starship passes overhead shooting at something behind it and then you see Vader's Star Destroyer chasing her and it keeps coming and coming and COMING AND COMING IT'S JUST SO HUGE......




I think maybe you had to be there.

[Primula Baggins]

I agree, needless to say. It's gotta be hard for today's young whippersnap—umm, I mean people, to realize that NOTHING LIKE THAT HAD EVER BEEN DONE IN A MOVIE BEFORE.

Imagine being a true geek who loves space battles, adventure, a romantic score, other planets, aliens! Imagine that your search for this, in film anyway, was limited to movies made before 1976.* Then imagine seeing Star Wars (that's all it was then, folks, just Star Wars).

We have all seen better effects, even better movies, even better Star Wars movies** since then. But it's never been the giant leap forward that Star Wars itself was.

*Go ahead. Go look at 'em. Yes, there are great SF movies from before then, but none of them had everything I list above. Fast space battles? Couldn't be done. Romantic scores? They tried to be "spacy" and it usually didn't work. Aliens? Guys in rubber suits, and they were either bad guys (90%) or tragic heroic figures who die (10%). And all the heroes were in their thirties at least. And the heroines? What heroines? Their job was to catch their spike heel in the ground while running from a robot and fall down and cry.

**Or so I would argue. Rogue One.