Gun Control Debate

[RoseMorninStar]

It's heartbreaking. When I hear that people use shootings as an excuse to arm teachers I .. I just cannot comprehend the idiocy. I haven't been able to read or watch much about this shooting (or the one in Buffalo, or California) because.. why?

We were in New Zealand when the mass shooting happened in Christchurch. The horror was felt everywhere AND THEY CHANGED LAWS in an attempt to stop it from happening again. Here, it's just another day where our children and families are slaughtered like we live in a war zone.

[Sunsilver]

I sincerely hope Biden manages to grow a pair, and stand up to the gun lobby. But then, the legislation will have to pass congress. And here's how things stood with many of the senators before he was elected:

[Sunsilver]

In another forum, Frelga wondered who the Republican party were praying to: https://thehalloffire.net/forum/viewtop ... 18#p399718

Another year, another shooting a number of years ago, but this is as good an answer as any:

[Sunsilver]

Wow! While we're on the subject of prayer...
Very interesting!

[Sunsilver]

I feel like I'm spamming this thread, but this is all so relevant, and dammit, I'M MAD!!

This Twitter user and writer, Bess Kalb, kept track of senators posting their condolences for the Uvalde shooting, and posted the amount said senators had donated to the NRA. Until this changes, 'thoughts and prayers' are all we're gonna get:

https://twitter.com/bessbell

The winner in the donation stakes was Mitt Romney, who got more than $13.5 MILLION from the NRA!!

Mitt Romney
@MittRomney
· May 24
Grief overwhelms the soul. Children slaughtered. Lives extinguished. Parents’ hearts wrenched. Incomprehensible. I offer prayer and condolence but know that it is grossly inadequate. We must find answers.

Bloody hypocrite!

[River]

Every new report from Uvalde makes the police response look worse.

Yeah, the good guys with guns worked out real well for the children of Uvalde.

I engaged with a couple gun nuts on a local Facebook group yesterday just to see what would happen if someone tried standing up to them. After running out of what were essentially the talking points/pre-recorded messages they attempted changing the subject and also attempted to put me on the defensive. I didn't fall for it. And then got some interesting reactions when I pointed out that the Constitution they keep falling back on can be amended if necessary. That it was, in fact, built to be amended.

[N.E. Brigand]

I agree with commentators who have said over the past few years that in general, the NRA doesn't corrupt candidates with money into agreeing with their views. Instead they mostly fund the candidates who already agree with their views. If I snapped my fingers and the NRA ceased to exist, the vast majority of Republican politicians would still support the twisted view of the Second Amendment that has been developed over the past five decades.

(Saw a 1991 interview yesterday with Warren Burger, then five years retired from his job as Chief Justice. He was a lifelong Republican who served in the Eisenhower administration as was appointed to the Supreme Court by Richard Nixon. He made it quite clear that in his view the Second Amendment was intended to provide for militias and nothing more than that, and he bemoaned the gun rights movement that had been developing since the 1960s.)

[N.E. Brigand]

An annoying quote from a conservative podcaster, in light of the stories about how the police did very little for the better part of an hour to stop the gunman, most of whose victims were in one classroom that the police failed to breach.

I'm not defending the actions of the officers. But we've demonized law enforcement to the point that there are far fewer rewards for being a hero, for taking risks. When your culture makes George Floyd the hero, real heroes stand down. Cultural rot has consequences.

If they were "real heroes," they wouldn't have stood down. What this shows is that they were never heroes in the first place.

[N.E. Brigand]

A suggestion from an MSNBC broadcaster:

[Sunsilver]

N.E. Brigand, I'm having a hard time believing that about money not corrupting senators. If they take the money, they feel they HAVE to vote the way the gun lobby wants them to, or they will loose their votes. And to an elected representative, votes are everything.

I wish I'd saved the post, but somewhere today I saw where a group of Asian people who were confronted with a shooter, hit him with a chair, subdued him and tied him up, all without the help of any weapons.

I also read about a student in Japan who went crazy and attacked his fellow students with a knife. Quite a few of them were injured but they all survived.

Then there's this song, written by Tom Paxton:

Bob Wolpert: (from Pete Seeger's FB page, which is administered by Bob).

Fifty-three years after Tom Paxton appeared on “Rainbow Quest” he walked on a stage to sing in New York’s East Village.

He told his audience simply:

“I’d like to begin with a question.
What if, no matter how angry he was,
How outraged he was,
How furious he was,
What if, no matter how angry he was,
He couldn't lay hands on a gun,
He couldn't lay hands on a gun?”

It was February 23, 2018 - five days after seventeen people were massacred at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Florida.

Two days after the Parkland, Florida, murders, Tom posted a video of the song on his Facebook page. Its lyrics powerfully challenge the view that mental health measures, without further gun control, can stop gun violence.

“What if, no matter how right he was,
How wrong they were,
How evil they were,
What if, no matter how right he was,
He couldn't lay hands on a gun,
He couldn't lay hands on a gun?
No rifle, no pistol,
No shotgun in sight,
No revolver, automatic,
No assault gun tonight,
No clips crammed with bullets
Anywhere to be found,
No weapons just lying around?
What if, no matter how outraged he was,
How furious he was,
How murderous he was,
What if, no matter how outraged he was,
He couldn't lay hands on a gun,
He couldn't lay hands on a gun.”

"What If, No Matter" could have been penned this week just as easily as it was in 2011.
I live in a small community outside of Philadelphia. As of today, there have been 188 homicides in the city this year. (There have also been 679 nonfatal victims of gun violence this year.)

While some songs may have a short shelf-life, this one, tragically, continues to be as relevant as ever.
In the video below, Tom Paxton and The Don Juans (Don Henry, Jon Vezner) perform "What If, No Matter" at The Alberta Rose Theatre in Portland, Oregon.

Click the link below to experience the power of song.

[N.E. Brigand]

I think it's a bit like the distinction, as Tom Shippey discusses concerning The Lord of the Rings, between "power corrupts" and "power reveals."

[N.E. Brigand]

NBC reporter:



Networks usually cut this line from the frequent airings of The Fugitive:

[RoseMorninStar]

Every new report from Uvalde makes the police response look worse.

Yeah, the good guys with guns worked out real well for the children of Uvalde.

I engaged with a couple gun nuts on a local Facebook group yesterday just to see what would happen if someone tried standing up to them. After running out of what were essentially the talking points/pre-recorded messages they attempted changing the subject and also attempted to put me on the defensive. I didn't fall for it. And then got some interesting reactions when I pointed out that the Constitution they keep falling back on can be amended if necessary. That it was, in fact, built to be amended.

Not only that, but even First Amendment rights are not unlimited. I'd also think we need a redefinition of 'well-regulated militia'.

[N.E. Brigand]

Of course, in that movie, the local cops are incompetent while the federal marshals are heroes.

A new Wall Street Journal article (paywalled but some excerpts are here) tells the story of a Uvalde mother who arrived at the school well after the shooting started to find that authorities seemed more determined to keep parents out than to go in and stop the shooter. It suggests failure at multiple levels:

“The police were doing nothing,” said Angeli Rose Gomez, who after learning about the shooting drove 40 miles to Robb Elementary School, where her children are in 2nd and 3rd grade. “They were just standing outside the fence. They weren’t going in there or running anywhere.” ...

Ms. Gomez ... was one of numerous parents who began encouraging—first politely, and then with more urgency—police and other law enforcement to enter the school. After a few minutes, she said, federal marshals approached her and put her in handcuffs. ...

Ms. Gomez convinced local Uvalde police whom she knew to persuade the marshals to set her free. Around her the scene was frantic. She said she saw a father tackled and and thrown to the ground by police and a third pepper-sprayed. Once freed from her cuffs, Ms. Gomez made her distance from the crowd, jumped the school fence, and ran inside to grab her two children. She sprinted out of the school with them.

Now there's some actual bravery.

[RoseMorninStar]

I agree with commentators who have said over the past few years that in general, the NRA doesn't corrupt candidates with money into agreeing with their views. Instead they mostly fund the candidates who already agree with their views. If I snapped my fingers and the NRA ceased to exist, the vast majority of Republican politicians would still support the twisted view of the Second Amendment that has been developed over the past five decades.

(Saw a 1991 interview yesterday with Warren Burger, then five years retired from his job as Chief Justice. He was a lifelong Republican who served in the Eisenhower administration as was appointed to the Supreme Court by Richard Nixon. He made it quite clear that in his view the Second Amendment was intended to provide for militias and nothing more than that, and he bemoaned the gun rights movement that had been developing since the 1960s.)

I don't agree. I've been around long enough to know that the attitude toward guns in this country have greatly changed in the past 20-30 or so years. The NRA has promoted a different sort of gun ownership than they did in the 60's & 70's when their programs were geared toward safety and hunting. There were not legal weapons of war being toted all over or stored up for personal militias. In fact, the NRA was in support of gun control in the 1960's when the Black Panthers had guns.

[N.E. Brigand]

I think we may be talking past one another. To be clear: if I could snap my fingers and make the NRA disappear, I would do it without hesitation.

I'm not saying the NRA had no effect on the course of events. I'm saying that they are the Ring and the politicians are Gollum.

"Need anything dangerous ever cross any of our paths?"

[River]

Of course, in that movie, the local cops are incompetent while the federal marshals are heroes.

A new Wall Street Journal article (paywalled but some excerpts are here) tells the story of a Uvalde mother who arrived at the school well after the shooting started to find that authorities seemed more determined to keep parents out than to go in and stop the shooter. It suggests failure at multiple levels:

“The police were doing nothing,” said Angeli Rose Gomez, who after learning about the shooting drove 40 miles to Robb Elementary School, where her children are in 2nd and 3rd grade. “They were just standing outside the fence. They weren’t going in there or running anywhere.” ...

Ms. Gomez ... was one of numerous parents who began encouraging—first politely, and then with more urgency—police and other law enforcement to enter the school. After a few minutes, she said, federal marshals approached her and put her in handcuffs. ...

Ms. Gomez convinced local Uvalde police whom she knew to persuade the marshals to set her free. Around her the scene was frantic. She said she saw a father tackled and and thrown to the ground by police and a third pepper-sprayed. Once freed from her cuffs, Ms. Gomez made her distance from the crowd, jumped the school fence, and ran inside to grab her two children. She sprinted out of the school with them.

Now there's some actual bravery.

I can see it both ways. On the one hand, I probably would have surrendered to my most primal instincts and followed Ms. Gomez over the fence if my kids were in there. On the other, as sympathetic as I am to Ms. Gomez, it was a really dumb move. The cops staging outside the school were most likely trying to do two things: 1) control the scene outside the school, because a pack of frantic parents rushing a building with no plan and an active shooter inside sounds like an excellent way to add casualties and 2) make and implement a plan. Reading between the lines, this was a situation the local police were not equipped for so they had to call upon other agencies for back up and they probably had some communication and command issues to sort out. There may very well be cowardice at play here, but I suspect that it was more a lack of planning and preparation that caused a delay. We see that sort of thing play out whenever disasters that overwhelm the local response teams occur.

[RoseMorninStar]

N.E. you are probably correct, but I seem to recall there was a turning point in the NRA, a change in focus and leadership. Let me see if I can find it.. something to do with Wayne LaPierre if I am not mistaken. Yes, there is a definite partnership with politicians. Here's a PBS Frontline program. It's almost an hour long. NRA under fire. In 1977 dissidents took over the NRA and decided it should become a 2nd amendment organization instead of a safety organization. That is when it became political bedfellows. Other countries have fewer weapons and they have fewer mass shootings.

[Sunsilver]

There were not legal weapons of war being toted all over or stored up for personal militias. In fact, the NRA was in support of gun control in the 1960's when the Black Panthers had guns.

Some people have (facetiously) suggested that the best way to get Congress to vote for gun control would be to give every black man an AR 15...

Rose, I remember when that happened. Their members were going door-to-door with pamphlets, encouraging people to buy guns and join the N.R.A. They were as bad as door to door evangelists!

[N.E. Brigand]

I can see it both ways. On the one hand, I probably would have surrendered to my most primal instincts and followed Ms. Gomez over the fence if my kids were in there. On the other, as sympathetic as I am to Ms. Gomez, it was a really dumb move. The cops staging outside the school were most likely trying to do two things: 1) control the scene outside the school, because a pack of frantic parents rushing a building with no plan and an active shooter inside sounds like an excellent way to add casualties and 2) make and implement a plan. Reading between the lines, this was a situation the local police were not equipped for so they had to call upon other agencies for back up and they probably had some communication and command issues to sort out. There may very well be cowardice at play here, but I suspect that it was more a lack of planning and preparation that caused a delay. We see that sort of thing play out whenever disasters that overwhelm the local response teams occur.

As a number of people have written over the past couple days, "make and implement a plan" is not how it's supposed to work. For convenience, I'll quote the "Police Tactics" subsection of the "Legacy" section of the Wikipedia article titled "'Columbine High School massacre" about the infamous school shooting in Littleton, Colorado in 1999, in which two perpetrators killed 13 people (and themselves) in what was then by far the deadliest U.S. school shooting in more than 30 years (to that point, in all U.S. history, Columbine's death toll for a school shooting was exceeded only by the University of Texas tower shooting in 1966).

Police departments reassessed their tactics and now train for Columbine-like situations after criticism over the slow response and progress of the SWAT teams during the shooting. Police followed a traditional tactic at Columbine: surround the building, set up a perimeter, and contain the damage. That approach has been replaced by a tactic known as the Immediate Action Rapid Deployment tactic. This tactic calls for a four-person team to advance into the site of any ongoing shooting, optimally a diamond-shaped wedge, but even with just a single officer if more are not available. Police officers using this tactic are trained to move toward the sound of gunfire and neutralize the shooter as quickly as possible. Their goal is to stop the shooter at all costs; they are to walk past wounded victims, as the aim is to prevent the shooter from killing or wounding more. Dave Cullen has stated: "The active protocol has proved successful at numerous shootings... At Virginia Tech alone, it probably saved dozens of lives."

As for whether the Uvalde police were equipped for such a situation, I'm not the first to point out that Uvalde, with a population of just 15,000, has a S.W.A.T. team. Maybe they should be defunded.



Edited to add: It may yet turn out that the police were justified in taking or not taking the actions they did in that harrowing hour. But it doesn't help that the story keeps changing.