Harry Potter (No book 7 spoilers, please)

[Queen_Beruthiel]

Glad to see you here, Wagner!

Y'know I am beginning to suspect that Snape may have known about the horcruxes. What do people make of this:

"When Voldemort discovered that the diary had been mutilated and robbed of all its powers, I am told that his anger was terrible to behold."

It is beyond belief that anyone except Snape told Dumbledore about this scene. The question is: how much did Snape know? I am not suggesting that Voldemort shared any knowledge with him, but that Dumbledore discussed it with him later. Surely the sentence would be constructed differently if the informant merely reported that the Dark Lord was very angry over the loss of an apparently uninteresting artefact?

[superwizard]

Y'know I am beginning to suspect that Snape may have known about the horcruxes.

I always assumed that Snape knew about horcruxes. Dumbledore seems to have trusted him completely and he was in the order...[/i]

[TheWagner]

I always assumed that Snape knew about horcruxes. Dumbledore seems to have trusted him completely and he was in the order...[/i]

Dumbledore states that, other than Voldemort, only he, Harry, Ron & Hermione know about the Horcruxes. McGonagal certainly did not know, and she seems to be the closest thing that Dumbledore had to a friend. At any rate, the other members of the Order did not know: they all were very curious.

I do not think that Dumbledore would have told Snape. Now, I agree with QB (waves back) that the sentence construction is noteworthy, but I attributed this to Dumbledore's understanding what it really meant. Of course, Snape would have passed this information on to Dumbledore (but see below!): Voldemort becoming so upset over a mere diary was interesting. However, one usually does not give spies critical information: they run high risks of being captured, and it is damaging enough if they can be made to speak what they have learned. If the captured spy can tell more than he/she reconnaissanced on his/her own, then things could get really bad. Snape is obviously a highly skilled Occlumens: he has fooled Voldemort and/or Dumbledore, after all. However, would Snape hold up under extreme torture or being drugged? Dumbledore would not want to take that chance.

However, and as Regulus Black showed, Dumbledore can only state what he thinks to be true. So, just because Dumbledore does not think that Snape knows, it does not mean that Snape was not able to make the inference himself. Infering Horcruxes is not exactly adding 1+1 (more like deriving the natural logarithm from first principles!), but two people have done it and if anybody else can, then Snape seems like a good candidate.

So, our discussion of double agent or triple agent might be moot: free agent, anyone? Seriously, the fact that Snape would pass on information like this really does suggest that Snape is against Voldemort. Snape might not be on Dumbledore's side, but even then, Snape would hope that perhaps Dumbledore could use this information against Voldemort and (even better!) give Snape a clue about why Voldemort would care that much about a Diary. If Snape has worked out that there was a Horcrux, then he probably did not share this idea with Dumbledore, which also would be consistent with the free agent idea. (However, we do not know that Snape knows, so I won't claim that this is evidence.)

[Ellienor]

So who's the "RB" that left the note in place of the horcrux at the lake? The only one I can think of is "Regulus Black", who left the Death Eaters and is supposedly dead. Are he and Harry going to team up in Book 7? Will he be a replacement for Sirius for Harry?

I also think that Dumbledore was pleading for Snape to kill him so that Draco didn't have to do it. It was verrry interesting that when it came down to it, Draco was scared and didn't want to kill Dumbledore--he wasn't as innately evil as he acted. Perhaps Draco's behavior was due to sheer terror of what would happen if he didn't act like a death eater-to be?

I don't think Snape was entirely on Dumbledore's side, either. Snape didn't want LV to prevail, and he was forced to join forces with Dumbledore and the Order of the Phoenix.

[superwizard]

Dumbledore states that, other than Voldemort, only he, Harry, Ron & Hermione know about the Horcruxes

But TheWagner it was not only them who knew about Horcruxes in
general. Snape seemed to know quite a lot about the dark arts and I wouldn't put it past him to have read many of the books in the restricted section of the library at Hogwarts. And of course maybe just maybe his old potions teacher told him about it. If he did know about Horcruxes than it wouldn't have been too hard to relate Voldemort's seeming immortality with it. Dumbledore might not even have known Snape knew about them...

[Alatar]

So who's the "RB" that left the note in place of the horcrux at the lake? The only one I can think of is "Regulus Black", who left the Death Eaters and is supposedly dead. Are he and Harry going to team up in Book 7? Will he be a replacement for Sirius for Harry?

RB is almost certainly Regulus Black, for two reasons. Firstly, in foreign editions the name was translated to Regulus Swartz and other variants of Black. In each case the initials match the name. Secondly, there was a locket found in the Black household during Order of the Phoenix which matches the description.

Which explains why there was such a big deal made over Mundungus Fletcher selling stuff from the house. The plot thickens....

[TheWagner]

So who's the "RB" that left the note in place of the horcrux at the lake? The only one I can think of is "Regulus Black", who left the Death Eaters and is supposedly dead. Are he and Harry going to team up in Book 7? Will he be a replacement for Sirius for Harry?

In translations of HBP in which the surname Black is translated to "Swart" or "Zwart," "RAB" is given as "RAS" or "RAZ." This is true for no other surnames beginning with B (in English) used in the series.

We know the answers to the rest, but Mithluin's initial conditions forbid me to speak of them! I can zap them to you, if you like.....

But TheWagner it was not only them who knew about Horcruxes in general.

True, but they would represent a LOT of the people who know what they actually are. The knowledge must be very obscure. Fudge clearly has no idea what they are: he could not make heads or tails of what Dumbledore told him.

Consider Voldemort's questions to Slughorn: they basically confirm for Voldemort that Horcruxes are real and can grant immortality. The length to which Voldemort had to go to get the most basic information and the fact that Hermione was unable to find anything more than a mention of the name shows just how hard the information is to acquire.

Snape seemed to know quite a lot about the dark arts and I wouldn't put it past him to have read many of the books in the restricted section of the library at Hogwarts.

Voldemort would have tried that first, and given his ability to charm, he would have had no problem getting access. Yet he failed to find confirmation of what Horcruxes were: he still had to ask Slughorn for basic information.

Hermione, too, checked the restricted section and found nothing. Dumbledore had banned the topic completely, years before Snape was born, so the restricted section had long since lost any books that would have provided the information.

The fact that Voldemort was not able to learn more about Horcruxes from his cronies in his youth suggests that the old families do not have a lot of books just lying about the places with the information. Voldemort would have had a much better idea about the basics (e.g., knowing that they actually exist!) had this been the case.

If he did know about Horcruxes than it wouldn't have been too hard to relate Voldemort's seeming immortality with it. Dumbledore might not even have known Snape knew about them...

With the last, I agree: if Snape suspects, then Dumbledore does not know. Still, we have to remember just how obscure the information is. Voldemort lies to his DEs that he does not know how he survived; he seemed fairly confident that none of them could piece together what happened. However, anyone with Slughorn's knowledge should have been able to make the inference, as what Voldemort describes in the graveyard is very similar to what Slughorn told him would happen.


So, going back to the original statement, we do not have any evidence that Snape knows about Horcruxes. He's a good candidate for knowing, but Horcruxes also are a good candidate for being something so arcane that even Snape would not know about them.

[superwizard]

So, going back to the original statement, we do not have any evidence that Snape knows about Horcruxes. He's a good candidate for knowing, but Horcruxes also are a good candidate for being something so arcane that even Snape would not know about them.

I totally agree TheWagner.

[MithLuin]

We know the answers to the rest, but Mithluin's initial conditions forbid me to speak of them! I can zap them to you, if you like.....

Precisely

For those who would like to speculate about the contents of book 7 (using all resources available), I would recommend the lovely TORc thread :
Harry Potter (HBP Spoilers)
which is just languishing at the moment, but is generally quite alive with all that sort of thing

I would hope that this thread not be a replica of that one (otherwise, what's the point?), so I wanted to shift the discussion onto the books that are already published - a fair enough premise, I hope!

But Hobby still hasn't come back to tell me if this is what she had in mind

"When Voldemort discovered that the diary had been mutilated and robbed of all its powers, I am told that his anger was terrible to behold."

I agree that Snape is the origin of "I am told" - who else would tell Dumbledore this? But what does "all its powers" mean?

Remember, Harry returned the (destroyed) diary to Lucius. So, the way this may have gone down is that Lucius was forced to return the damaged goods.... and Snape was a witness. In this case, it would have been obvious to any DE watching that the diary no longer did what it was supposed to do - it wasn't 'magical' any more.

The question is, who knew what it was supposed to do? Ginny, Harry, Ron, Mr. and Mrs. Weasley, McGonagall, Lockhart (?) and Dumbledore all knew that you wrote in it, and "Tom" wrote back to you. I am going to assume that Lucius knew this much as well (he certainly does after Dumbledore tells him, but the plan involved him knowing something before hand). But there is no indication that Snape was even aware of the diary's existence in book 2....the last we hear of him is the challenge to Lockhart when Harry and Ron find out Ginny was taken. So he would have had to have heard these details from one of the others, but that is reasonable enough.

It is possible that 'lost its powers' means lost its ability to write back, lost the 'memory' of Tom Riddle. You could still say that about the diary, not knowing a thing about horcruxes.

But, of course, when Dumbledore relays the information to Harry, he does know about Horcruxes, so that colours our interpretation.

We do not know how Snape was 'up to his ears' in the Dark Arts before setting foot in Hogwarts. So, we don't know how much he could have learned - he has an unspecified source, which may include horcruxes (though that's a stretch). I imagine his source of information was Eileen Prince (so nothing special), but for all we know, she's really Grindelwald's niece or something She also was a contemporary of Lord V and the original Death Eaters.

[TheWagner]

"When Voldemort discovered that the diary had been mutilated and robbed of all its powers, I am told that his anger was terrible to behold."

I agree that Snape is the origin of "I am told" - who else would tell Dumbledore this? But what does "all its powers" mean?

Good question: did Harry also destroy the magical diary when he destroyed (or liberated) the soul fragment? We know that at least some magical items can be physically destroyed: Harry's old Nimbus, for example. You suggest that yourself, and that is my bet. After all, Voldemort was banking on nobody realizing what the Diary truly was: clearly, other magical items like it are not so rare as to cause the Diary to arouse any suspicion of the "how is that possible?" variety.

Remember, Harry returned the (destroyed) diary to Lucius. So, the way this may have gone down is that Lucius was forced to return the damaged goods.... and Snape was a witness. In this case, it would have been obvious to any DE watching that the diary no longer did what it was supposed to do - it wasn't 'magical' any more.

It seems most likely that Snape or Pettigrew witnessed it, simply because we know that at least some DE's (e.g., Bellatrix) distrust Snape, although others obviously do trust Snape.

Also, it does not seem that Voldemort encourages fraternization among his minions.

The question is, who knew what it was supposed to do? Ginny, Harry, Ron, Mr. and Mrs. Weasley, McGonagall, Lockhart (?) and Dumbledore all knew that you wrote in it, and "Tom" wrote back to you.

Clearly the ability of a Diary to respond was not too extraordinary: it would have been far more surprising to the Weasleys if it had. The Marauder's Map was imbued with similar properties.

I am going to assume that Lucius knew this much as well (he certainly does after Dumbledore tells him, but the plan involved him knowing something before hand).

Dumbledore states that Malfoy knew that the Diary could ultimately open the Chamber of Secrets, and the fact that Malfoy planted it on a disposable girl rather than give it to Draco or one of Draco's friends indicates that Malfoy at least suspected how the Diary would work. Obviously, this level of magic is well-enough known. Also, it was done by a 16 year old: a very gifted 16 year old, but a 16-year old nonetheless.

It is possible that 'lost its powers' means lost its ability to write back, lost the 'memory' of Tom Riddle. You could still say that about the diary, not knowing a thing about horcruxes.

We do not know how Snape was 'up to his ears' in the Dark Arts before setting foot in Hogwarts. So, we don't know how much he could have learned - he has an unspecified source, which may include horcruxes (though that's a stretch).

Horcruxes would be a stretch. Really, for this to make sense, Horcruxes must be fairly arcane knowledge. It would make most sense if the few people who had heard of them did not even really believe that they could exist.

[Wildwood]

What a fascinating discussion! :D:D I am enjoying it immensely, so don't stop!

My "gut" tells me that Snape is bad, through and through. I cannot be really certain as to why, except it comes out in the small things, as opposed to the big things, that he does.

He simply indulges in a mean spiritedness that gets him nothing but a sense of personal satisfaction in having held himself up by holding someone else down unfairly. I get the sense that he is making long dead people "pay for it" by doing to others what was done to him.

It puts me in mind of what psychologists say about people who have been abused: they either go on to repeat that abuse, by vicitimizing others, or they rise above and try to be as perfect as possible, etc. He seems to fall into the first group; in his mind, he's getting his own back by doing the same wrong thing to others that was done to him.

I dont' doubt he is damaged, and unfairly so. In the nature vs. nurture debate, the way he was nurtured sure seems to have overtaken any good nature that he may have once possessed. And he does not seem at all sorry about it.

It's in teh little day to day cruelties that are not required for any real reason that I find cause to suspect him!! If it were ALL a plot, those moments would not serve it! There are strong arguments in either direction, but I can't get away from my feeling on this one: he'd dirty!
:D:D:D:D:D:D:D I want him not to be, but I can't help that. One can hardly help feeling for the poor jerk, the way he grew up. But pity can sometimes make me see things that are not there. He's just too nasty, at times when it would serve absolutely no purpose. I can't get past that.

It occured to me, too, as I was listening to the debate, to wonder whether Snape is not Rowling's Saruman!! Serving both sides, with absolutely no loyalty to either, simply to place himself best, regardless of which one eventually wins!

Now that is not an exact comparison, obviously, as Saruman was clearly aiming at world domination, either through his own self (best scenario) or as Sauron's top minion(second best). So Saruman cannot be said to be siding with good in either case. The similarity is in the dual plan!!

Snape is working both ends against the middle! If the good side wins, then he comes out smelling like a rose, because he was their spy and got information for them, etc. The danger of the death eaters can be presumed to be past, if Lord V is vanquished, so he can freely support the good guys, and his story is still in place. He's safe. He has his job. He can bedevil and torture kids with impunity for however he want to.

But if the bad side wins, then he's also been *their* spy! He can proclaim himself openly, and let his bad nature run free as it wants to, etc. No more need to pretend to be good, because the good guys are vanquished! :D:D:D:D:D:D

Either way you cut it, Snape comes out on top. This doesn't even rule out the idea that Snape killed Dumbledore at Dumbledore's insistence, to save Malfoy! Even that act can be said to benefit both sides, regardless of who wins in the end.

If the good guys win, and they give him veritase syrum, for instance, he can say - truthfully - that he was following Dumbledore's directions, that he argued against the plan, that it was all to save Draco, etc. If the bad guys win, he can say he took out the main threat!

What do you think?? Is he somewhat like Saruman, simply tryign to position himself in the most powerful place that he can??
:D:D:D:D:D:D

[superwizard]

Wildwood while your theory seems plausible I disagree. The fact is I feel the opposite towards Snape. I don't pity him and I blame him for everything he's done. I want him to be evil I really do, I even convinced myself he was for a while. However in my heart of hearts I believe that Snape is did essencially convert to the good side. Dumbledore obviously knew about something that Snape did before Voldemort was reduced to a spirit that convinced Dumbledore that he was good. As Lupin once said you don't need to trust Snape you need to trust Dumbledore's decisions and I do.

[MithLuin]

Wildwood, I agree with you, Snape is nasty and petty. He is not good. But I do think he is on the good guys' side. At the end of the day, he does not want LV to win. He might have a back up plan in case he does , but that isn't what he wants.

Snape's 'conversion' is an interesting topic. Clearly, he was bad - he was a Death Eater, and I do not for one minute believe that he joined up for any altruistic reasons. (There are a few possibilities there - I suspect Regulus joined up 'to better the wizarding world' or some nonsense like that...and at least one fan-fiction suggested that Snape joined specifically to defeat LV - yeah right!). He joined up because Lord Voldemort had power, and Snape wanted some of that. He wanted an opportunity to practice his beloved Dark Arts, and even more so, an opportunity to get back at his enemies....

Edit: Dinner's over.

I imagine that he didn't have any clear idea of what he wanted...he just wanted to feel important and powerful. Having the likes of Lucius Malfoy treat him as an equal was pretty cool....being able to threaten/torture idiot weakling was no doubt fun. But I doubt he realized that he really just wanted to pay back Sirius for the prank and James for getting the girl and Muggles because his dad was such a git.

Something happened with the Prophecy. Snape repeated it to LV....and later came to Dumbledore repenting of it. My guess is that he thought nothing of it so long as it was the Dark Lord targetting some random baby - what did he care? It was just when it became Lily that it mattered.

So, his 'conversion' was a desperate attempt to save Lily. But at no point did he buy into anything that made Dumbledore who he was. He was just looking for help, and didn't care about philosophy. He was in over his head - powerless to stop LV - so he went to the one person who would a) believe him and b) be able to do something. Conveniently, he had an alibi.

But....the plan failed. Dumbledore didn't save the Potters. James and Lily died. Snape never had his reason to wholeheartedly switch sides. He is merely working for Dumbledore. Everyone else loves and trusts Dumbledore...and by 'everyone', I mean the other guys who owe their second chances to Dumbledore: Hagrid and Lupin.

It is possible that Snape and Dumbledore are closer than we've seen - but what we've mostly seen from them are a lot of disagreements on how things should be done. Snape obeys, but grudgingly and not wholeheartedly. He more gives way, and does his best to run his own agenda on the side. For instance, Dumbledore wouldn't sack Lupin, but Snape was determined to let the students know he was a werewolf...which would get him sacked. Snape didn't disobey Dumbledore's orders (at least, not til the end, and then I just don't know what happened), but he didn't give up his own ideas.

So, I maintain that Snape is one of the good guys. At the end of the day, he wants Potter to take down LV for the world. But he isn't happy that that's the way it has to be (he genuinely hates Harry), and he doesn't necessarily have good motives for helping that side. He is still quite nasty - he never 'reformed.' I would say that he was (in some ways) a failed attempt by Dumbledore....but I will also maintain that Dumbledore was right about Snape, and Harry was wrong.

[Queen_Beruthiel]

I was probably reading too much into Dumbledore's comment about Voldemort and the diary. Yes, Snape told him how Voldemort reacted. The reference to the lost powers of the diary are actually explained - Voldemort told Lucius that the diary would open the CoS.

So Dumbledore is unlikely to have told Snape about horcruxes. Which doesn't mean that Snape hasn't come to some conclusions of his own. After all, it was to him that Dumbledore came after destroying the ring horcrux.

Why did Dumbledore want to send Harry for Snape after securing the (false) locket? He did not send for his deputy, or for the official Potions master, but for Snape. Was he seeking an antidote to the potion?

[MithLuin]

Snape apparently is rather good with counter-curses - we see him heal Malfoy, he's the one who stops Quirrell (really Lord V!) from taking out Harry in Book 1, and Dumbledore came to him after being hit by a particularly nasty curse with the Ring. I imagine this is his Dark Arts training being put to good uses...

And, of course he's great with Potions.

So, it is possible that Dumbledore was looking for Snape to save his life - either with an antidote to that bizarre potion, or a counter-curse of some sort to undo the lingering side-effects. It is also interesting that Dumbledore still asks for Snape after arriving at the school (and knowing the Death Eaters are there). But... in that case, we can assume that Dumbledore knew something about what was coming. After all, he did know that Malfoy's mission was to try to kill him. He may or may not have known about the Unbreakable Vow (well, we know Harry told him, but we don't know what Snape had told Dumbledore about that). Dumbledore pretends (to Draco) that that was 'just a story' Snape told him. So, maybe he wanted Snape for something different now? If there was any conspiracy in which Snape and Dumbledore had arranged the death....that kicked in at that point.

[TheWagner]

I concur about the potion idea, or at least the general cure. Dumbledore did credit Snape with saving him from the curse protecting the Ring.


As for Dumbledore thinking that the Unbreakable Vow (UV) was just a story, this is possible, but unlikely. Harry hears Snape tell Draco that he (Snape) made the UV with Draco's mother. Snape should not be dumb enough to lie about this: Draco need only ask his mother for verification, after all.

Now, JKR does not tell us exactly what Harry tells Dumbledore: she just writes that Harry recounts his story. However, if Harry recounted that part, then Dumbledore should know (if he did not already) as a master double/triple/quadruple agent like Snape would not make so obvious mistake as lying to Draco.

[superwizard]

It was obvious that Dumbledore trusted Snape to the very end. So even if he knew about the unbreakable curse he still trusted Snape and so he must have known that Snape may have to kill him at one point. I think that Snape is essentially on the good side simply because Dumbledore though so himself.

[TheWagner]

It was obvious that Dumbledore trusted Snape to the very end. So even if he knew about the unbreakable curse he still trusted Snape and so he must have known that Snape may have to kill him at one point. I think that Snape is essentially on the good side simply because Dumbledore though so himself.

Well, if Dumbledore did know (and he should have done) about the Unbreakable Vow, then he had to know that either he or Snape was (for all intents and purposes) dead that night. If Snape had spared Dumbledore, then Snape should have dropped dead. (That should scupper the "Snape said 'Avada Kedavra' but thought another spell" conspiracy theory.)

One possibility is that the Snape/Dumbledore argument was on this topic. This has a lot of implications for VII: if Dumbledore knew that he might very well die soon, then he would have taken much greater care to leave his effects in order so that Harry could carry on the quest. If, of course, he could avoid death, then swell: but Snape might well be critical to the long-term plans (as the inside man within the DEs) and Dumbledore, although hardly modest, might have judged that more important than himself.

[superwizard]

Yes TheWagner I quite agree. By the way I want to ask is their no college for wizards?

[TheWagner]

Yes TheWagner I quite agree. By the way I want to ask is their no college for wizards?

According to JKR, no, unless they go into specialized careers like Aurors or Healers.

That should not count as a VII spoiler, by the way, as all of that will happen after the story!


Speaking of VII, JKR has said that she's nearly decided on the title. Many places are holding contests for guessing the title. Given that only one of the books has a title that used anything used before in the series ("Prisoner of Azkaban"), this strikes me as a real long-shot! My guess: The Wing Speed of the Unladen Sparrow...