The Book of Job discussion
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axordil
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I read it differently, not as an extended statement but as a development. In Chap. 17, he's at one stage in his fight with despair; by Chap. 19 he's lower, and no longer interested in vindication in this life. The suffering and the argument with his "friends" have taken a toll. 19 has no indication of any hope in this life. That's where he's gotten.
I think reading the chapters literally, as if they are a real time conversation, only skims whats going on here: competing schools of theodicy, one representing misapplied empiricism, the other frustrated faith.
It's worth noting that Job himself engages in a bit of tit-for-tat in terms of what action in this life brings about in this life, when he warns his friends their wrath is likely to bring destruction upon them. One is reminded of "he who lives by the sword shall die by the sword" in Matthew.
Thought the Hebrew does not support it, Blake reads the crux at 19:26 as "I shall see God in my flesh," that is, God will appear as Job. At least that's how he illustrates it: in the plates where both God and Job appear, the difference seems to be the length of the beard.
I think reading the chapters literally, as if they are a real time conversation, only skims whats going on here: competing schools of theodicy, one representing misapplied empiricism, the other frustrated faith.
It's worth noting that Job himself engages in a bit of tit-for-tat in terms of what action in this life brings about in this life, when he warns his friends their wrath is likely to bring destruction upon them. One is reminded of "he who lives by the sword shall die by the sword" in Matthew.
Thought the Hebrew does not support it, Blake reads the crux at 19:26 as "I shall see God in my flesh," that is, God will appear as Job. At least that's how he illustrates it: in the plates where both God and Job appear, the difference seems to be the length of the beard.
Quick note on Redeemer bit. God as Redeemer ("he redeems a captive") is a popular image in Jewish liturgy. As I understand it, a (war?) captive was about as low as you could go, with no one on your side. God here is seen as stepping in to help those who have no help from themselves or other humans.
The most direct application of this imagery to text is in Exodus, where God acts as Redeemer, leading Hebrew slaves out of Egypt.
Job seems to think his redeemer is someone other than God, though. I tend to agree with Ax - he imagines someone to take up his side in the heavenly court and convince God to release him from his trials.
The most direct application of this imagery to text is in Exodus, where God acts as Redeemer, leading Hebrew slaves out of Egypt.
Job seems to think his redeemer is someone other than God, though. I tend to agree with Ax - he imagines someone to take up his side in the heavenly court and convince God to release him from his trials.
If there was anything that depressed him more than his own cynicism, it was that quite often it still wasn't as cynical as real life.
Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!
Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!
God as Redeemer. I like that. I agree that the text does read as if he is talking about someone other than God; perhaps other, but also, God... a personality or aspect of God? The reason I am following this line of thinking (apart from the obvious reason that is) is because if God was called capital R redeemer, and if this "other" is also called "my Redeemer," then it seems to me that this other is also God. Where as the Accuser (Adversary, Enemy, Opponent) is never confused with God in the text, except indirectly by Job's councillors [when they say his suffering proves he is wicked].
Anyway, the above is just a bit of gymnastics before I prepare the next chapter post (to follow shortly).
Anyway, the above is just a bit of gymnastics before I prepare the next chapter post (to follow shortly).
Just a footnote - Hebrew text does not have capital letters.The reason I am following this line of thinking (apart from the obvious reason that is) is because if God was called capital R redeemer, and if this "other" is also called "my Redeemer," then it seems to me that this other is also God.
If there was anything that depressed him more than his own cynicism, it was that quite often it still wasn't as cynical as real life.
Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!
Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!
Job 20 is Zophar's second time speaking. By now he and his friends are pretty angry with Job for what they must see as his insolence. Zophar in particular seems more interested in defending his status or reputation -- which he feels Job is attacking -- than helping Job at this point. But it is not merely a defence but is also an attack, as if driven by his anger at Job's insolence.
Zophar's seems a slippery argument (please point out if I am wrong about this). While he basically picks up where Bildad left off in describing the wicked, he does so in such a way that incorporates Job's point -- without indicating his agreement -- about how the wicked [also] prosper. But he imposes a limitation on the phenomenon as if it were fact. (The reverse of course is that he and the other councillors are not suffering, therefore they cannot be wicked.) The slipperiness reaches a surprising point when Zophar throws some unsubstantiated falsehoods about Job into the mix (see comments below at v. 19).
Would it be fair to say that this debate should be of interest to people who are studying law?
Job 20 NIV or HEB
Zophar makes some claims about the wicked
1 Then Zophar the Naamathite replied:
2 “My troubled thoughts prompt me to answer
because I am greatly disturbed.
3 I hear a rebuke that dishonors me,
and my understanding inspires me to reply.
"I am stricken by your allegations about me."
(I don't think anyone should put up with abuse, verbal or otherwise. But all four have been trading tit for tat with each other all along. As well Job has been throwing in health and well being status reports which have been ignored entirely.)
4 “Surely you know how it has been from of old,
ever since mankind [some texts Adam] was placed on the earth,
5 that the mirth of the wicked is brief,
the joy of the godless lasts but a moment.
6 Though the pride of the godless person reaches to the heavens
and his head touches the clouds,
7 he will perish forever, like his own dung;
those who have seen him will say, ‘Where is he?’
8 Like a dream he flies away, no more to be found,
banished like a vision of the night.
9 The eye that saw him will not see him again;
his place will look on him no more.
10 His children must make amends to the poor;
his own hands must give back his wealth.
11 The youthful vigor that fills his bones
will lie with him in the dust.
Fair points, but are they relevant?
12 “Though evil is sweet in his mouth
and he hides it under his tongue,
13 though he cannot bear to let it go
and lets it linger in his mouth,
I don't see the relevance here either.
14 yet his food will turn sour in his stomach;
it will become the venom of serpents within him.
15 He will spit out the riches he swallowed;
God will make his stomach vomit them up.
16 He will suck the poison of serpents;
the fangs of an adder will kill him.
17 He will not enjoy the streams,
the rivers flowing with honey and cream.
18 What he toiled for he must give back uneaten;
he will not enjoy the profit from his trading.
19 For he has oppressed the poor and left them destitute;
he has seized houses he did not build.
Verse 19, based on what we know of Job (especially the "blameless" part) is a complete fabrication.
20 “Surely he will have no respite from his craving;
he cannot save himself by his treasure.
21 Nothing is left for him to devour;
his prosperity will not endure.
22 In the midst of his plenty, distress will overtake him;
the full force of misery will come upon him.
23 When he has filled his belly,
God will vent his burning anger against him
and rain down his blows on him.
24 Though he flees from an iron weapon,
a bronze-tipped arrow pierces him.
25 He pulls it out of his back,
the gleaming point out of his liver.
Terrors will come over him;
26 total darkness lies in wait for his treasures.
A fire unfanned will consume him
and devour what is left in his tent.
27 The heavens will expose his guilt;
the earth will rise up against him.
28 A flood will carry off his house,
rushing waters on the day of God’s wrath.
29 Such is the fate God allots the wicked,
the heritage appointed for them by God.”
It seems strange to me, given the context of the discussion, that Job's friends have yet to speak a kind or consoling word or to show any sign of empathy at all -- apart from the sitting in silence for seven days part at the beginning. But Job's affliction didn't end after those 7 days but has been ongoing -- his skin closing and reopening, to say nothing of his material and familial losses -- even though he has pointed out that he feels shunned, rejected, alone... And not once have they suggested that Job is right to hang onto his hope.
Zophar's seems a slippery argument (please point out if I am wrong about this). While he basically picks up where Bildad left off in describing the wicked, he does so in such a way that incorporates Job's point -- without indicating his agreement -- about how the wicked [also] prosper. But he imposes a limitation on the phenomenon as if it were fact. (The reverse of course is that he and the other councillors are not suffering, therefore they cannot be wicked.) The slipperiness reaches a surprising point when Zophar throws some unsubstantiated falsehoods about Job into the mix (see comments below at v. 19).
Would it be fair to say that this debate should be of interest to people who are studying law?
Job 20 NIV or HEB
Zophar makes some claims about the wicked
1 Then Zophar the Naamathite replied:
2 “My troubled thoughts prompt me to answer
because I am greatly disturbed.
3 I hear a rebuke that dishonors me,
and my understanding inspires me to reply.
"I am stricken by your allegations about me."
(I don't think anyone should put up with abuse, verbal or otherwise. But all four have been trading tit for tat with each other all along. As well Job has been throwing in health and well being status reports which have been ignored entirely.)
4 “Surely you know how it has been from of old,
ever since mankind [some texts Adam] was placed on the earth,
5 that the mirth of the wicked is brief,
the joy of the godless lasts but a moment.
6 Though the pride of the godless person reaches to the heavens
and his head touches the clouds,
7 he will perish forever, like his own dung;
those who have seen him will say, ‘Where is he?’
8 Like a dream he flies away, no more to be found,
banished like a vision of the night.
9 The eye that saw him will not see him again;
his place will look on him no more.
10 His children must make amends to the poor;
his own hands must give back his wealth.
11 The youthful vigor that fills his bones
will lie with him in the dust.
Fair points, but are they relevant?
12 “Though evil is sweet in his mouth
and he hides it under his tongue,
13 though he cannot bear to let it go
and lets it linger in his mouth,
I don't see the relevance here either.
14 yet his food will turn sour in his stomach;
it will become the venom of serpents within him.
15 He will spit out the riches he swallowed;
God will make his stomach vomit them up.
16 He will suck the poison of serpents;
the fangs of an adder will kill him.
17 He will not enjoy the streams,
the rivers flowing with honey and cream.
18 What he toiled for he must give back uneaten;
he will not enjoy the profit from his trading.
19 For he has oppressed the poor and left them destitute;
he has seized houses he did not build.
Verse 19, based on what we know of Job (especially the "blameless" part) is a complete fabrication.
20 “Surely he will have no respite from his craving;
he cannot save himself by his treasure.
21 Nothing is left for him to devour;
his prosperity will not endure.
22 In the midst of his plenty, distress will overtake him;
the full force of misery will come upon him.
23 When he has filled his belly,
God will vent his burning anger against him
and rain down his blows on him.
24 Though he flees from an iron weapon,
a bronze-tipped arrow pierces him.
25 He pulls it out of his back,
the gleaming point out of his liver.
Terrors will come over him;
26 total darkness lies in wait for his treasures.
A fire unfanned will consume him
and devour what is left in his tent.
27 The heavens will expose his guilt;
the earth will rise up against him.
28 A flood will carry off his house,
rushing waters on the day of God’s wrath.
29 Such is the fate God allots the wicked,
the heritage appointed for them by God.”
It seems strange to me, given the context of the discussion, that Job's friends have yet to speak a kind or consoling word or to show any sign of empathy at all -- apart from the sitting in silence for seven days part at the beginning. But Job's affliction didn't end after those 7 days but has been ongoing -- his skin closing and reopening, to say nothing of his material and familial losses -- even though he has pointed out that he feels shunned, rejected, alone... And not once have they suggested that Job is right to hang onto his hope.
Last edited by SirDennis on Fri Apr 27, 2012 12:08 am, edited 3 times in total.
Frelga wrote:Just a footnote - Hebrew text does not have capital letters.The reason I am following this line of thinking (apart from the obvious reason that is) is because if God was called capital R redeemer, and if this "other" is also called "my Redeemer," then it seems to me that this other is also God.
fair enough. Why then would Redeemer be capitalized in the English translation of the Hebrew Bible? I understand it is a convention of the English language. Is there no way to indicate a proper name in Hebrew though?Not that I know.SirDennis wrote:Frelga wrote:Just a footnote - Hebrew text does not have capital letters.The reason I am following this line of thinking (apart from the obvious reason that is) is because if God was called capital R redeemer, and if this "other" is also called "my Redeemer," then it seems to me that this other is also God.
Why capitalize in English? Possibly as a way to suggest who, from the Christian perspective, should be assumed to be the redeemer.
If there was anything that depressed him more than his own cynicism, it was that quite often it still wasn't as cynical as real life.
Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!
Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!
Yes I think so too. But in some "Christian" translations, most notably the two stalwarts, KJV and NIV, it is "redeemer," others "Redeemer" and still others (I noticed just now) "Redeemer" is replaced by "Saviour." The NIV and Amplified Bibles indicate that "Vindicator" can be meant also.Frelga wrote:Why capitalize in English? Possibly as a way to suggest who, from the Christian perspective, should be assumed to be the redeemer.
So yes, I agree with your premise. However, why not just say "Saviour" as some translations do? (Which takes me out of the story setting somewhat... even supposing that is who he is talking about, it just seems anachronistic.) I am willing to agree that an agenda may appear to be in evidence in some translations (and especially some paraphrases). But I cannot rule out the possibility that what some call Job's imagination was not also Revelation.
In any event, this still doesn't explain why the HEB (Hebrew-English Bible), which I have been diligently linking to for the past dozen plus posts, and which I have been calling the Hebrew Bible, would have it capitalized. Unless that bible is for Messianic Jews? Or Redeemer is one of the names of God? (which takes us back to the God and "other" observation.)
I am reminded now of how easy it is to get sidetracked into quibbling (even with one's self, ie "walking in the vanity of one's own mind") over some details, even to the point of assuming assumptions and agendas are in play. And isn't that, at least in part, what Job's friends have been doing?
xpost with Ax: Yes that varies as well, for instance in the NLT which I have used sparingly since I began posting the text some many chapters ago.
With this post we have made it to the halfway mark through the Book of Job... Jonah's 4 chapters seem a short swim by comparison.
Job 21 sees Job continuing his discourse on the wicked. When he began speaking on them earlier in the book, it seemed the subtext of his comments was "why do I, though innocent, suffer even as the wicked prosper?" Now he is more engaged in the debate that has broken out among himself and his friends. You will perhaps notice that he does not discount the things that his councillors are saying entirely, in fact he repeats some things that they say. However he continues to maintain that if their comments are meant to imply guilt on his part, that they are mistaken about him and therefore have a distorted view of God (or are misapplying their knowledge).
A quick note about the translation used for this instalment: The Amplified Bible is a curious presentation in that it expands the verses to produce greater clarity with respect to the source material from which it is translated. In other words commentary and notes are built right into the verses. I do not read from the AMP very often so this is kind of a dry run for me as well. Hopefully the additional commentary (mine, in blue) will not overburden the reader.
Job 21 Amplified Bible (AMP) or HEB
Job's further sayings about "the wicked"
1THEN JOB answered,
2Hear diligently my speech, and let this [your attention] be your consolation [given me].
3Allow me, and I also will speak; and after I have spoken, mock on.
"Since you have yet to offer consolation, the least you can do is listen carefully to what I have to say. Afterwards you may continue mocking me."
4As for me, is my complaint to man or of him? And why should I not be impatient and my spirit be troubled?
5Look at me and be astonished (appalled); and lay your hand upon your mouth.
6Even when I remember, I am troubled and afraid; horror and trembling take hold of my flesh.
"Please forgive me for I am suffering greatly. [On top of my afflictions] the pain of my loss comes in fits and starts leaving me wasted and terrified."
7Why do the wicked live, become old, and become mighty in power?
8Their children are established with them in their sight, and their offspring before their eyes.
9Their houses are safe and in peace, without fear; neither is the rod of God upon them.
10Their bull breeds and fails not; their cows calve and do not miscarry.
11They send forth their little ones like a flock, and their children skip about.
12They themselves lift up their voices and sing to the tambourine and the lyre and rejoice to the sound of the pipe.
13They spend their days in prosperity and go down to Sheol (the unseen state) in a moment and peacefully.
14Yet they say to God, Depart from us, for we do not desire the knowledge of Your ways.
15Who is the Almighty, that we should serve Him? And what profit do we have if we pray to Him?
Basically Job is pointing out that the wicked are the godless; not being His [children] He does not contend with them or correct them.
16But notice, [you say] the prosperity of the wicked is not in their power; the mystery [of God's dealings] with the ungodly is far from my comprehension.
17How often [then] is it that the lamp of the wicked is put out? That their calamity comes upon them? That God distributes pains and sorrows to them in His anger?
18That they are like stubble before the wind and like chaff that the storm steals and carries away?
Verses 16-18: Job offers a proof that God does not contend with the wicked. I may be reading too much into this, but it seems to me that he is setting up an argument that if he (Job) is being chastised or corrected, it is not proof of wickedness, but rather that he (Job) belongs to and is loved by God.
The idea that God disciplines (reproves, corrects, warns, teaches, and so on) those whom he loves is stated often throughout the Hebrew and Christian Bibles (ie Deut 8:5, Psa 94:12, Prov 3:12, Heb 12:6, Rev 3:19 to name a few).
19You say, God lays up [the punishment of the wicked man's] iniquity for his children. Let Him recompense it to the man himself, that he may know and feel it.
20Let his own eyes see his destruction, and let him drink of the wrath of the Almighty.
21For what pleasure or interest has a man in his house and family after he is dead, when the number of his months is cut off?
"What's the use of punishing someone after they are dead? What do the dead care of such things? But..."
22Shall any teach God knowledge, seeing that He judges those who are on high?
23One dies in his full strength, being wholly at ease and quiet;
24His pails are full of milk [his veins are filled with nourishment], and the marrow of his bones is fresh and moist,
25Whereas another man dies in bitterness of soul and never tastes of pleasure or good fortune.
26They lie down alike in the dust, and the worm spreads a covering over them.
"Life still doesn't make sense, why do you say otherwise?" Perhaps another wave of pain has hit Job just now?
27Behold, I know your thoughts and plans and the devices with which you would wrong me.
28For you say, Where is the house of the rich and liberal prince [meaning me]? And where is the tent in which the wicked [Job] dwelt?
29Have you not asked those who travel this way, and do you not accept their testimony and evidences--
"Why do you accuse me? Does the testimony of others' lives (perhaps some who know me) mean nothing?" see also v30-33
30That the evil man is [now] spared in the day of calamity and destruction, and they are led forth and away on the day of [God's] wrath?
31But who declares [a man's] way [and rebukes] him to his face? And who pays him back for what he has done?
32When he is borne to the grave, watch is kept over his tomb.
33The clods of the valley are sweet to him, and every man shall follow him to a grave, as innumerable people [have gone] before him.
"Therefore...
34How then can you comfort me with empty and futile words, since in your replies there lurks falsehood?
... why do you falsely accuse me [rather than comfort me]?"
Note that in this speech Job does not address (or 'cry out to') God at some point; instead his speech is directed toward his councillors, from beginning to end. It seems also that this is a bit of a low point (again) in that he is now openly complaining about how unhelpful his friends are being, and goes so far as to accuse them of lying.
Thank you for reading so far!
Job 21 sees Job continuing his discourse on the wicked. When he began speaking on them earlier in the book, it seemed the subtext of his comments was "why do I, though innocent, suffer even as the wicked prosper?" Now he is more engaged in the debate that has broken out among himself and his friends. You will perhaps notice that he does not discount the things that his councillors are saying entirely, in fact he repeats some things that they say. However he continues to maintain that if their comments are meant to imply guilt on his part, that they are mistaken about him and therefore have a distorted view of God (or are misapplying their knowledge).
A quick note about the translation used for this instalment: The Amplified Bible is a curious presentation in that it expands the verses to produce greater clarity with respect to the source material from which it is translated. In other words commentary and notes are built right into the verses. I do not read from the AMP very often so this is kind of a dry run for me as well. Hopefully the additional commentary (mine, in blue) will not overburden the reader.
Job 21 Amplified Bible (AMP) or HEB
Job's further sayings about "the wicked"
1THEN JOB answered,
2Hear diligently my speech, and let this [your attention] be your consolation [given me].
3Allow me, and I also will speak; and after I have spoken, mock on.
"Since you have yet to offer consolation, the least you can do is listen carefully to what I have to say. Afterwards you may continue mocking me."
4As for me, is my complaint to man or of him? And why should I not be impatient and my spirit be troubled?
5Look at me and be astonished (appalled); and lay your hand upon your mouth.
6Even when I remember, I am troubled and afraid; horror and trembling take hold of my flesh.
"Please forgive me for I am suffering greatly. [On top of my afflictions] the pain of my loss comes in fits and starts leaving me wasted and terrified."
7Why do the wicked live, become old, and become mighty in power?
8Their children are established with them in their sight, and their offspring before their eyes.
9Their houses are safe and in peace, without fear; neither is the rod of God upon them.
10Their bull breeds and fails not; their cows calve and do not miscarry.
11They send forth their little ones like a flock, and their children skip about.
12They themselves lift up their voices and sing to the tambourine and the lyre and rejoice to the sound of the pipe.
13They spend their days in prosperity and go down to Sheol (the unseen state) in a moment and peacefully.
14Yet they say to God, Depart from us, for we do not desire the knowledge of Your ways.
15Who is the Almighty, that we should serve Him? And what profit do we have if we pray to Him?
Basically Job is pointing out that the wicked are the godless; not being His [children] He does not contend with them or correct them.
16But notice, [you say] the prosperity of the wicked is not in their power; the mystery [of God's dealings] with the ungodly is far from my comprehension.
17How often [then] is it that the lamp of the wicked is put out? That their calamity comes upon them? That God distributes pains and sorrows to them in His anger?
18That they are like stubble before the wind and like chaff that the storm steals and carries away?
Verses 16-18: Job offers a proof that God does not contend with the wicked. I may be reading too much into this, but it seems to me that he is setting up an argument that if he (Job) is being chastised or corrected, it is not proof of wickedness, but rather that he (Job) belongs to and is loved by God.
The idea that God disciplines (reproves, corrects, warns, teaches, and so on) those whom he loves is stated often throughout the Hebrew and Christian Bibles (ie Deut 8:5, Psa 94:12, Prov 3:12, Heb 12:6, Rev 3:19 to name a few).
19You say, God lays up [the punishment of the wicked man's] iniquity for his children. Let Him recompense it to the man himself, that he may know and feel it.
20Let his own eyes see his destruction, and let him drink of the wrath of the Almighty.
21For what pleasure or interest has a man in his house and family after he is dead, when the number of his months is cut off?
"What's the use of punishing someone after they are dead? What do the dead care of such things? But..."
22Shall any teach God knowledge, seeing that He judges those who are on high?
23One dies in his full strength, being wholly at ease and quiet;
24His pails are full of milk [his veins are filled with nourishment], and the marrow of his bones is fresh and moist,
25Whereas another man dies in bitterness of soul and never tastes of pleasure or good fortune.
26They lie down alike in the dust, and the worm spreads a covering over them.
"Life still doesn't make sense, why do you say otherwise?" Perhaps another wave of pain has hit Job just now?
27Behold, I know your thoughts and plans and the devices with which you would wrong me.
28For you say, Where is the house of the rich and liberal prince [meaning me]? And where is the tent in which the wicked [Job] dwelt?
29Have you not asked those who travel this way, and do you not accept their testimony and evidences--
"Why do you accuse me? Does the testimony of others' lives (perhaps some who know me) mean nothing?" see also v30-33
30That the evil man is [now] spared in the day of calamity and destruction, and they are led forth and away on the day of [God's] wrath?
31But who declares [a man's] way [and rebukes] him to his face? And who pays him back for what he has done?
32When he is borne to the grave, watch is kept over his tomb.
33The clods of the valley are sweet to him, and every man shall follow him to a grave, as innumerable people [have gone] before him.
"Therefore...
34How then can you comfort me with empty and futile words, since in your replies there lurks falsehood?
... why do you falsely accuse me [rather than comfort me]?"
Note that in this speech Job does not address (or 'cry out to') God at some point; instead his speech is directed toward his councillors, from beginning to end. It seems also that this is a bit of a low point (again) in that he is now openly complaining about how unhelpful his friends are being, and goes so far as to accuse them of lying.
Thank you for reading so far!
-
axordil
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I can't get there in 16-18. Or 7-15. In fact, what I get from that section is closer to what Blake got: if you're into a God who is going to hurt you to teach you, and so you look for signs of divine approval or disdain in your daily fortune, *you're doing it wrong*. Those "wicked" folk--who don't sound all that wicked here, and who seem to enjoy life and prosper and don't need the God Job's friends are selling are doing it *right* by comparison. In Blake's early 19th-century context it was an anti-Calvinist moment (another reason I love Blake).The idea that God disciplines (reproves, corrects, warns, teaches, and so on) those whom he loves is stated often throughout the Hebrew and Christian Bibles (ie Deut 8:5, Psa 94:12, Prov 3:12, Heb 12:6, Rev 3:19 to name a few).
Oh I have huge problems with the baggage-laden term "wicked" and used it out of convenience more than anything. But I do not think it means "one who does bad things." Actually, as Job uses it, and as you imply, a person could do good things and have a good life, as the world counts such things, but still be counted among the wicked simply because they do not acknowledge (or worse, because they reject) God. In the sense that Job uses the term "wicked," "godless" covers it I think, but only if it is also understood without baggage -- for instance as "unknown to God," "not belonging to God," "disinterested in God," and so on.axordil wrote:I can't get there in 16-18. Or 7-15. In fact, what I get from that section is closer to what Blake got: if you're into a God who is going to hurt you to teach you, and so you look for signs of divine approval or disdain in your daily fortune, *you're doing it wrong*. Those "wicked" folk--who don't sound all that wicked here, and who seem to enjoy life and prosper and don't need the God Job's friends are selling are doing it *right* by comparison. In Blake's early 19th-century context it was an anti-Calvinist moment (another reason I love Blake).The idea that God disciplines (reproves, corrects, warns, teaches, and so on) those whom he loves is stated often throughout the Hebrew and Christian Bibles (ie Deut 8:5, Psa 94:12, Prov 3:12, Heb 12:6, Rev 3:19 to name a few).
Often it is implied (or stated outright) that those who are willing to accept God's correction as proof of his love are into punishment and abuse and/or otherwise lack refinement or intelligence. But isn't it true that with maturity children often suddenly "get" their parents -- especially after having children of their own?
God teaches in many ways. As with any loving guardian, discipline takes many forms: from modelling behaviour; to being consistent; impartial; patient; merciful; kind, and so on. What happens sometimes (as I see it) is a person might prosper to a point where they forget that at all times they should acknowledge God (which btw is not an expectation for newish believers but comes with spiritual maturity). In such a case, where a person is become arrogant or prideful (or believe it's all about them and their gumption or in short fall into playing God), it is actually for their edification and benefit that they be reminded that they need God. The only unpardonable sin I am aware of in the whole Bible is rejecting God entirely -- which makes Jesus saying (while being crucified) "forgive them Father for they know not what they do," all the more poignant (for me).
That commentary aside, it's still not clear that Job is being punished. Actually I think the opposite is true.
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axordil
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Within the context of the story frame, Job is not being punished, ore corrected, but tested to destruction. Punishment or correction would be rational--the argument Job's friends make.
I agree that "wicked" here leans toward "godless," but I also think a point is being made about what God is and isn't. If one goes to someone who's pretty much having a good time with life and tells them they're doing it wrong, and offers them the paradigm Job's friends suggest is real, the reaction of "why on earth would I want that" is natural.
I don't think the author of this part of Job believed in two sets of causation in the world, one for believers and one for non-believers.
I agree that "wicked" here leans toward "godless," but I also think a point is being made about what God is and isn't. If one goes to someone who's pretty much having a good time with life and tells them they're doing it wrong, and offers them the paradigm Job's friends suggest is real, the reaction of "why on earth would I want that" is natural.
I don't think the author of this part of Job believed in two sets of causation in the world, one for believers and one for non-believers.
Technically it's even narrower: blaspheming the Holy Spirit, and the context in which it appears suggests Jesus said that as a swipe at the scribe and Pharisee crowd suggesting his power was diabolic and not divine.The only unpardonable sin I am aware of in the whole Bible is rejecting God entirely
I agree with you there. Perhaps this is why it is often the broken hearted who seek solace from God. Even among many believers there is a tendency to forget about needing God when things are going well (which is kind of what I said in my previous post).axordil wrote:If one goes to someone who's pretty much having a good time with life and tells them they're doing it wrong, and offers them the paradigm Job's friends suggest is real, the reaction of "why on earth would I want that" is natural.
I wanted to thank you Ax for your participation in the thread so far.
Sorry for the long gaps between posts... my life is pretty random right now, though "I am blessed and highly favoured." 
In this chapter Eliphaz takes another turn. Imho he makes some good points here but not without also levelling some (apparently) baseless accusations at Job. It is as if he is stretching [the truth about Job] in order to rationalize what he sees as proof of Job's wickedness. On the plus side, as I said, he does make other points that (according to my understanding of scripture so far) are fair, if not edifying in general.
ps I really like this chapter as it appears in the Hebrew-English Bible. I would encourage you to read it using the link (HEB) below. I would just reproduce it here but again, because of the Terms of Use statement there, I am not sure that I am allowed to.
Job 22 KJV or HEB
Elifaz (Eliphaz) Speaks Again
1Then Eliphaz the Temanite answered and said,
2Can a man be profitable unto God, as he that is wise may be profitable unto himself?
3Is it any pleasure to the Almighty, that thou art righteous? or is it gain to him, that thou makest thy ways perfect?
"What, you think you can impress God with your piety or your knowledge of His ways?" (today we might say, "...knowledge of the scriptures"). Sound doctrine imho.
4Will he reprove thee for fear of thee? will he enter with thee into judgment?
"Who do you think you are anyway?"
5Is not thy wickedness great? and thine iniquities infinite?
6For thou hast taken a pledge from thy brother for nought, and stripped the naked of their clothing.
7Thou hast not given water to the weary to drink, and thou hast withholden bread from the hungry.
8But as for the mighty man, he had the earth; and the honourable man dwelt in it.
9Thou hast sent widows away empty, and the arms of the fatherless have been broken.
10Therefore snares are round about thee, and sudden fear troubleth thee;
11Or darkness, that thou canst not see; and abundance of waters cover thee.
Verses 5-9 form the baseless accusation part I mentioned in the introduction. 10, 11 is what Elifaz thinks Job can expect because of Job's godless ways.
Verse 10: Depending on the version a good dozen to 15 references to snares appear in the Hebrew Bible, and then most often in Job, Psalms and Proverbs.
Verse 11 is significant in light of Isaiah 43:2(a) "When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; And through the rivers, they shall not overflow you." This may also be a reference (but for the dating question) to Exodus from Egypt. Bottom line is it is a promise that believers can stand on.
12Is not God in the height of heaven? and behold the height of the stars, how high they are!
13And thou sayest, How doth God know? can he judge through the dark cloud?
14Thick clouds are a covering to him, that he seeth not; and he walketh in the circuit of heaven.
Verses 13 and 14 might be a reference to how God appeared to the Israelites during the 40 years in the desert following their deliverance from Egypt. It is worth noting that in a desert climate, clouds would be necessary in order to survive a prolonged stay. In other words clouds are not necessarily a bad thing.
15Hast thou marked the old way which wicked men have trodden?
16Which were cut down out of time, whose foundation was overflown with a flood:
17Which said unto God, Depart from us: and what can the Almighty do for them?
18Yet he filled their houses with good things: but the counsel of the wicked is far from me.
"You think you will prosper if you are godless? I don't..."
19The righteous see it, and are glad: and the innocent laugh them to scorn.
20Whereas our substance is not cut down, but the remnant of them the fire consumeth.
"... in fact the outlook for the godless is sketchy [in the end]."
21Acquaint now thyself with him, and be at peace: thereby good shall come unto thee.
22Receive, I pray thee, the law from his mouth, and lay up his words in thine heart.
Interesting choice of words "law" given the debate about when Job was written. However in Hebrews 8 it says this: "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:" The bit about writing the law in their hearts is familiar to me and stated elsewhere in the Hebrew Bible (First Testament?) But it is similar also to an idea (looking ahead here) in Job 32: "But it is the spirit in a person, the breath of the Almighty, that gives them understanding."
23If thou return to the Almighty, thou shalt be built up, thou shalt put away iniquity far from thy tabernacles.
24Then shalt thou lay up gold as dust, and the gold of Ophir as the stones of the brooks.
25Yea, the Almighty shall be thy defence, and thou shalt have plenty of silver.
26For then shalt thou have thy delight in the Almighty, and shalt lift up thy face unto God.
27Thou shalt make thy prayer unto him, and he shall hear thee, and thou shalt pay thy vows.
28Thou shalt also decree a thing, and it shall be established unto thee: and the light shall shine upon thy ways.
29When men are cast down, then thou shalt say, There is lifting up; and he shall save the humble person.
30He shall deliver the island of the innocent: and it is delivered by the pureness of thine hands.
Verses 23-30 is up-lifting somewhat (compared to what we have heard from Elifaz so far). But it is couched in the assumption that Job must not have been walking in these ways already, or turned from them at some point.
Verse 30 expresses a concept that we see elsewhere in the Hebrew and Christian Bibles (okay help me out here, what have we decided about alternate terms for the OT and NT?): that God will bless others through the hands of the righteous. For instance there is the story of Joseph and a general principle Jesus and Paul spoke of.
And then there is the opposite effect in the OT, that God might turn away from a whole community of believers if only a few of His people disobey His commands (cf the story of someone taking spoils from a town God told them not to take any from... ugh Joshua? or perhaps Deuteronomy. I can't remember just now which means this is enough for today).
In this chapter Eliphaz takes another turn. Imho he makes some good points here but not without also levelling some (apparently) baseless accusations at Job. It is as if he is stretching [the truth about Job] in order to rationalize what he sees as proof of Job's wickedness. On the plus side, as I said, he does make other points that (according to my understanding of scripture so far) are fair, if not edifying in general.
ps I really like this chapter as it appears in the Hebrew-English Bible. I would encourage you to read it using the link (HEB) below. I would just reproduce it here but again, because of the Terms of Use statement there, I am not sure that I am allowed to.
Job 22 KJV or HEB
Elifaz (Eliphaz) Speaks Again
1Then Eliphaz the Temanite answered and said,
2Can a man be profitable unto God, as he that is wise may be profitable unto himself?
3Is it any pleasure to the Almighty, that thou art righteous? or is it gain to him, that thou makest thy ways perfect?
"What, you think you can impress God with your piety or your knowledge of His ways?" (today we might say, "...knowledge of the scriptures"). Sound doctrine imho.
4Will he reprove thee for fear of thee? will he enter with thee into judgment?
"Who do you think you are anyway?"
5Is not thy wickedness great? and thine iniquities infinite?
6For thou hast taken a pledge from thy brother for nought, and stripped the naked of their clothing.
7Thou hast not given water to the weary to drink, and thou hast withholden bread from the hungry.
8But as for the mighty man, he had the earth; and the honourable man dwelt in it.
9Thou hast sent widows away empty, and the arms of the fatherless have been broken.
10Therefore snares are round about thee, and sudden fear troubleth thee;
11Or darkness, that thou canst not see; and abundance of waters cover thee.
Verses 5-9 form the baseless accusation part I mentioned in the introduction. 10, 11 is what Elifaz thinks Job can expect because of Job's godless ways.
Verse 10: Depending on the version a good dozen to 15 references to snares appear in the Hebrew Bible, and then most often in Job, Psalms and Proverbs.
Verse 11 is significant in light of Isaiah 43:2(a) "When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; And through the rivers, they shall not overflow you." This may also be a reference (but for the dating question) to Exodus from Egypt. Bottom line is it is a promise that believers can stand on.
12Is not God in the height of heaven? and behold the height of the stars, how high they are!
13And thou sayest, How doth God know? can he judge through the dark cloud?
14Thick clouds are a covering to him, that he seeth not; and he walketh in the circuit of heaven.
Verses 13 and 14 might be a reference to how God appeared to the Israelites during the 40 years in the desert following their deliverance from Egypt. It is worth noting that in a desert climate, clouds would be necessary in order to survive a prolonged stay. In other words clouds are not necessarily a bad thing.
15Hast thou marked the old way which wicked men have trodden?
16Which were cut down out of time, whose foundation was overflown with a flood:
17Which said unto God, Depart from us: and what can the Almighty do for them?
18Yet he filled their houses with good things: but the counsel of the wicked is far from me.
"You think you will prosper if you are godless? I don't..."
19The righteous see it, and are glad: and the innocent laugh them to scorn.
20Whereas our substance is not cut down, but the remnant of them the fire consumeth.
"... in fact the outlook for the godless is sketchy [in the end]."
21Acquaint now thyself with him, and be at peace: thereby good shall come unto thee.
22Receive, I pray thee, the law from his mouth, and lay up his words in thine heart.
Interesting choice of words "law" given the debate about when Job was written. However in Hebrews 8 it says this: "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:" The bit about writing the law in their hearts is familiar to me and stated elsewhere in the Hebrew Bible (First Testament?) But it is similar also to an idea (looking ahead here) in Job 32: "But it is the spirit in a person, the breath of the Almighty, that gives them understanding."
23If thou return to the Almighty, thou shalt be built up, thou shalt put away iniquity far from thy tabernacles.
24Then shalt thou lay up gold as dust, and the gold of Ophir as the stones of the brooks.
25Yea, the Almighty shall be thy defence, and thou shalt have plenty of silver.
26For then shalt thou have thy delight in the Almighty, and shalt lift up thy face unto God.
27Thou shalt make thy prayer unto him, and he shall hear thee, and thou shalt pay thy vows.
28Thou shalt also decree a thing, and it shall be established unto thee: and the light shall shine upon thy ways.
29When men are cast down, then thou shalt say, There is lifting up; and he shall save the humble person.
30He shall deliver the island of the innocent: and it is delivered by the pureness of thine hands.
Verses 23-30 is up-lifting somewhat (compared to what we have heard from Elifaz so far). But it is couched in the assumption that Job must not have been walking in these ways already, or turned from them at some point.
Verse 30 expresses a concept that we see elsewhere in the Hebrew and Christian Bibles (okay help me out here, what have we decided about alternate terms for the OT and NT?): that God will bless others through the hands of the righteous. For instance there is the story of Joseph and a general principle Jesus and Paul spoke of.
And then there is the opposite effect in the OT, that God might turn away from a whole community of believers if only a few of His people disobey His commands (cf the story of someone taking spoils from a town God told them not to take any from... ugh Joshua? or perhaps Deuteronomy. I can't remember just now which means this is enough for today).
Okay, this has been a longer break than I wanted to take. Now that you have had time to catch up on your reading, are there any suggestions about how to approach the text differently? For instance are my paraphrases helpful or superfluous? Are the few notes and comparisons I make worthwhile? Were you expecting something a little more in depth?
The reason I ask is though I haven't been posting, I've been reading about 1 chapter a day since chapter 15 (or so) and am almost to the end. That's a lot of catching up yet and the next 15 or so chapters are somewhat like the ones we have already covered (as far as I can tell). Not that there aren't additional pearls and such but it is a bit to wade through, especially if it is only me and a couple other kind souls who are interested in the format as is.
My other concern is if I pick up the pace (it can't get any slower really) it may mean glossing over some things people may have been interested in dwelling on, in private or otherwise.
The reason I ask is though I haven't been posting, I've been reading about 1 chapter a day since chapter 15 (or so) and am almost to the end. That's a lot of catching up yet and the next 15 or so chapters are somewhat like the ones we have already covered (as far as I can tell). Not that there aren't additional pearls and such but it is a bit to wade through, especially if it is only me and a couple other kind souls who are interested in the format as is.
My other concern is if I pick up the pace (it can't get any slower really) it may mean glossing over some things people may have been interested in dwelling on, in private or otherwise.
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axordil
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Studies show that when confronted with unpleasant facts that contradict what they believe, people will refuse to accept the facts. A lot. For a lifetime in some cases. I see this passage as Eliphaz "doubling down" on things he believes that he cannot possibly reconcile with reality. Job MUST be vile to go through what he's going through. Wicked people CANNOT prosper in the long run. Virtuous people are ALWAYS rich.
Cognitive dissonance at its best.
Cognitive dissonance at its best.