National Prayer Day unconstituitonal

[Frelga]

Lawmakers defend Day of Prayer after court ruling

The article is sort of written backwards, so I rearranged the paragraphs in a more or less chronological order.

Congress established the day [of Prayer] in 1952 and in 1988 set the first Thursday in May as the day for presidents to issue proclamations asking Americans to pray.

The Freedom From Religion Foundation, a Madison, Wis.-based group of atheists and agnostics, filed a lawsuit against the federal government in 2008 arguing the day violated the separation of church and state. The Obama administration has countered that the statute simply acknowledges the role of religion in the United States.

A federal judge in Wisconsin ruled last week that the National Day of Prayer is unconstitutional because it amounts to a call for religious action. The judge did not bar any observances until all appeals are exhausted.

In her ruling, U.S. District Judge Barbara Crabb wrote that the government can no more enact laws supporting a day of prayer than it can encourage citizens to fast during Ramadan, attend a synagogue or practice magic.

Matt Lehrich, a spokesman for President Barack Obama, said Wednesday the president still plans to issue a proclamation for the upcoming prayer day.

The rest of the article quotes a number of Congressmen disagreeing with the decision.

Although I consider myself a religious person and believe that prayer can be a powerful practice, I agree strongly with the judge. President or any government official has no business telling people to pray or participate in any other religious practice.

[Cerin]

It's not as if anyone is being ordered to pray. I don't see it as that different from an earth day, a communal encouragement to a certain behavior. It doesn't require anyone to do anything. What the Constitution prohibits is the establishment of any particular religion; it doesn't adjure against any public acknowledgment of God by elected officials. It doesn't mandate a godless society. I see nothing wrong with a President saying, 'For those of us who pray and want to, let's pray today.'

[Lalaith]

I agree with Cerin.

[River]

Why do we need secular leaders suggesting prayers? Why do the religious even want secular leaders suggesting prayers?

[yovargas]

On first glimpse it doesn't strike as unconstitutional. It does strike me as a bad, unhelpful, divisive idea. To "set the first Thursday in May as the day for presidents to issue proclamations asking Americans to pray" has an uncomfortable feeling of "if you don't pray, you shouldn't be President".

And the earth day comparison doesn't work because we all agree that the earth is a good thing.

[Frelga]

What yov said.

Calling citizens to conserve natural resources and protect the environment is well within the government's purvey - it calls the community to take a tangible action for the tangible benefit of community. I can see the need for the government to call for more action on that front.

Individuals who believe that prayer provides a tangible benefit - myself included - are going to pray regardless Congress or the president. I see absolutely no need for the government to call for more prayer.

[Nin]

If my children were encouraged to pray at school, I would immediately take them out.

I strongly disagree with Cerin, nothing but praying is forcing religion on you. I don't pray, not only because I don't believe in it, but because the procedure is alien to me and I would judge it dangerous to influence my children in the way of praying because i think it's useless und I would not want them to adopt a point of view concerning the world in which prayer could solve their problems - unless they find that way by themselselves, not presented as positive by a gourvenement.
Also why not introduce them in ritual sacrifice, which is also a religious practice or in lithurgic singing? Why prayer? So of course I think it is a behaviour which should not be encouraged by any secular instance, less alone a president.

Your country does not have to be godless, but if the state is secular, religion is not its business, so the state is somehow godless. There is a difference between the personal, emotional level of a country and the administrative function of a state.

[Pearly Di]

There is a huge difference in my mind between prayer and ritual sacrifice. I pray, Nin, but I don't sacrifice animals in my back garden.

Why do we need secular leaders suggesting prayers? Why do the religious even want secular leaders suggesting prayers?

But if the secular leader happens to be a believing person (as Obama claims to be), that puts a slightly different gloss on it, perhaps?

I realise that doesn't deal with the constitutional issue. I really don't know what I think about this, as I am not American.

However, I did want to say that Britain has had National Days of Prayer ... albeit a long time ago.

King George VI (Liz's dad) called one during the Dunkirk crisis, on Sunday 26 May, 1940. The main service was held at Westminster Abbey and many parish churches in the UK were full that day, apparently.

I think there were a couple more National Days of Prayer called by the King. I'll have to Google.

Britain is a very different country now. We live in more complicated times. I can't see any Prime Minister ordering a National Day of Prayer, either then or now. (Interestingly, the Archbishop of Canterbury in 1940 was initially opposed to the notion, but then agreed with the King.)

Maybe only the monarch could get away with it, as we have a state church and the monarch is the Governor of the Church of England (not that anyone is compelled to attend the state church, of course.)

And of course it was wartime, and a huge national crisis going on.

[Alatar]

I agree with Nin here. Just because you personally don't sacrifice animals in your back garden doesn't mean its not a valid religious rite. There is really no difference between praying and sacrificing a lamb, from a religious perspective. If one is valid, then so is the other. Only modern mindsets and culture have changed that. If you accept the premise of talking to an ethereal being and asking them to help the world, sacrificing a lamb, or even offering them your firstborn child is just further along the line. A lot futher down the line, granted, but that line has no place in government.

And also, what Yov said.

[Pearly Di]

I agree with Nin here. Just because you personally don't sacrifice animals in your back garden doesn't mean its not a valid religious rite. There is really no difference between praying and sacrificing a lamb, from a religious perspective. If one is valid, then so is the other.

OK, I see what you are saying, but I did want to point out that there's a huge difference to me from a spiritual perspective, because I would never sacrifice a lamb as a religious ritual. The idea is, in fact, personally repugnant to me. I want to emphasise that I have no personal beef (if you will pardon the pun ) with people who sacrifice lambs for religious reasons: it's just something I would never do.

Obviously the massive spectrum of belief and culture cannot be easily represented by lumping various practices together as if they are all the same thing. But to elaborate further on that would be to take this thread down a rabbit trail, I think.

[yovargas]

It's not like it bothers me that a President is openly spiritual. I don't even mind a President suggesting fellow believers join him in prayer. What I mind is Congress setting aside days "for presidents to issue proclamations asking Americans to pray". That crosses an uncomfortable line from gov has no place in crossing.

[Padme]

I want to be the government official the President appoints to run the national prayer committee.

[Pearly Di]

What I mind is Congress setting aside days "for presidents to issue proclamations asking Americans to pray". That crosses an uncomfortable line from gov has no place in crossing.

Ah. Understood.

That's a lot different from the King of the UK calling for a National Day of Prayer during war-time as a 'one-off event' and in response to a national crisis.

And the monarch of the UK is not an elected government leader anyway, so they're not a political figure.

[MithLuin]

What happens on the national day of prayer is that private organizations organize prayer breakfasts or other events for the purpose of praying for the United States. Government proclamations of this nature tend to recognize community events that have been organized without them rather than declaring that everyone has to observe them. If there's a national ice cream day, it doesn't mean you have to acknowledge it in any way or eat ice cream. Nor is it a tacit government endorsement of the activity.

The National Day of Prayer Task Force is run by Focus on the Family, so most events that are organized fit that bent and are done so privately. I don't think many governors are setting up events in their state themselves, though they also tend to issue proclamations acknowledging the day. I'm pretty sure these events would happen with or without a presidential proclamation. They might change the name to 'Day of Prayer for our Nation' though, or something

Here's snippets of what the proclamations have said (under Reagan and Clinton):

1988: "On our National Day of Prayer, then, we join together as people of many faiths to petition God to show us His mercy and His love, to heal our weariness and uphold our hope, that we might live ever mindful of His justice and thankful for His blessing."

1993: "Through prayer our people take a moment away from the concerns of everyday life to understand the greater power that gives us guidance. We come together in an act common to all religions."

1994: "I encourage the citizens of this great Nation to gather, each in his or her own manner, to recognize our blessings, acknowledge our wrongs, to remember the needy, to seek guidance for our challenging future, and to give thanks for the abundance we have enjoyed throughout our history."

1995: "I call upon every citizen of this great Nation to gather together on that day to pray, each in his or her own manner, for God's continued guidance and blessing."

1996: "And though our citizens come from every nation on Earth and observe an extraordinary variety of religious faith [sic] and traditions, prayer remains at the heart of the American spirit."

1997: "...let us uphold the tradition of observing a day in which every American, in his or her own way, may come before God seeking increased peace, guidance, and wisdom for the challenges ahead."

1998: "In every city, town, and rural community across our country, people of every religious denomination gather to worship according to their faith. In churches, synagogues, temples, and mosques, Americans come together to pray."

And from Lincoln and Obama:

By the President of the United States of America.
A Proclamation.

Whereas, the Senate of the United States, devoutly recognizing the Supreme Authority and just Government of Almighty God, in all the affairs of men and of nations, has, by a resolution, requested the President to designate and set apart a day for National prayer and humiliation.

And whereas it is the duty of nations as well as of men, to own their dependence upon the overruling power of God, to confess their sins and transgressions, in humble sorrow, yet with assured hope that genuine repentance will lead to mercy and pardon; and to recognize the sublime truth, announced in the Holy Scriptures and proven by all history, that those nations only are blessed whose God is the Lord.

And, insomuch as we know that, by His divine law, nations like individuals are subjected to punishments and chastisements in this world, may we not justly fear that the awful calamity of civil war, which now desolates the land, may be but a punishment, inflicted upon us, for our presumptuous sins, to the needful end of our national reformation as a whole People? We have been the recipients of the choicest bounties of Heaven. We have been preserved, these many years, in peace and prosperity. We have grown in numbers, wealth and power, as no other nation has ever grown. But we have forgotten God. We have forgotten the gracious hand which preserved us in peace, and multiplied and enriched and strengthened us; and we have vainly imagined, in the deceitfulness of our hearts, that all these blessings were produced by some superior wisdom and virtue of our own. Intoxicated with unbroken success, we have become too self-sufficient to feel the necessity of redeeming and preserving grace, too proud to pray to the God that made us!
It behooves us then, to humble ourselves before the offended Power, to confess our national sins, and to pray for clemency and forgiveness.

Now, therefore, in compliance with the request, and fully concurring in the views of the Senate, I do, by this my proclamation, designate and set apart Thursday, the 30th. day of April, 1863, as a day of national humiliation, fasting and prayer. And I do hereby request all the People to abstain, on that day, from their ordinary secular pursuits, and to unite, at their several places of public worship and their respective homes, in keeping the day holy to the Lord, and devoted to the humble discharge of the religious duties proper to that solemn occasion.

All this being done, in sincerity and truth, let us then rest humbly in the hope authorized by the Divine teachings, that the united cry of the Nation will be heard on high, and answered with blessings, no less than the pardon of our national sins, and the restoration of our now divided and suffering Country, to its former happy condition of unity and peace.

In witness whereof, I have hereunto set my hand and caused the seal of the United States to be affixed.

Done at the City of Washington, this thirtieth day of March, in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and sixty-three, and of the Independence of the United States the eighty seventh.

By the President: Abraham Lincoln
William H. Seward, Secretary of State


------------------------------------------

THE WHITE HOUSE
Office of the Press Secretary
For Immediate Release May 7, 2009
NATIONAL DAY OF PRAYER, 2009

BY THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
A PROCLAMATION

Throughout our Nation's history, Americans have come together in moments of great challenge and uncertainty to humble themselves in prayer. In 1775, as the Continental Congress began the task of forging a new Nation, colonists were asked to observe a day of quiet humiliation and prayer. Almost a century later, as the flames of the Civil War burned from north to south, President Lincoln and the Congress once again asked the American people to pray as the fate of their Nation hung in the balance.

It is in that spirit of unity and reflection that we once again designate the first Thursday in May as the National Day of Prayer. Let us remember those who came before us, and let us each give thanks for the courage and compassion shown by so many in this country and around the world.

On this day of unity and prayer, let us also honor the service and sacrifice of the men and women of the United States Armed Forces. We celebrate their commitment to uphold our highest ideals, and we recognize that it is because of them that we continue to live in a Nation where people of all faiths can worship or not worship according to the dictates of their conscience.

Let us also use this day to come together in a moment of peace and goodwill. Our world grows smaller by the day, and our varied beliefs can bring us together to feed the hungry and comfort the afflicted; to make peace where there is strife; and to lift up those who have fallen on hard times. As we observe this day of prayer, we remember the one law that binds all great religions together: the Golden Rule, and its call to love one another; to understand one another; and to treat with dignity and respect those with whom we share a brief moment on this Earth.

The Congress, by Public Law 100-307, as amended, has called on the President to issue each year a proclamation designating the first Thursday in May as a "National Day of Prayer."

NOW, THEREFORE, I, BARACK OBAMA, President of the United States of America, do hereby proclaim May 7, 2009, as a National Day of Prayer. I call upon Americans to pray in thanksgiving for our freedoms and blessings and to ask for God's continued guidance, grace, and protection for this land that we love.

IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand this seventh day of May, in the year of our Lord two thousand nine, and of the Independence of the United States of America the two hundred and thirty-third.

BARACK OBAMA

(The third Sunday in July is Nat'l Ice Cream Day, as proclaimed by Ronald Reagan in 1984, in case you were curious.)

[River]

Why do we need secular leaders suggesting prayers? Why do the religious even want secular leaders suggesting prayers?

But if the secular leader happens to be a believing person (as Obama claims to be), that puts a slightly different gloss on it, perhaps?

Not really. Our presidents have been openly spiritual for most of this country's history. But we didn't elect them to be spiritual leaders. Obama, when he was elected, actually acknowledged that non-believers exist in this country during his inaugural address. This was unique and special in that usually people like me go unacknowledged by anyone and when we are we're often viewed with suspicion or pity. So that also puts a different gloss on this, for me.

If private groups want to have a prayer day, fine. They can do that. It just galls me that Congress made a special day for that in a country where the separation of church and state was written into our constitution. And yes, I do realize that no one has to participate in a national whatever day of any kind. I've worked on too many national holidays, even on some of the ones where it's fashionable to take the day off, not to realize this.

[Inanna]

Why not have a National Day for Atheists to not pray.

[Frelga]

OK, I see what you are saying, but I did want to point out that there's a huge difference to me from a spiritual perspective, because I would never sacrifice a lamb as a religious ritual. The idea is, in fact, personally repugnant to me. I want to emphasise that I have no personal beef (if you will pardon the pun ) with people who sacrifice lambs for religious reasons: it's just something I would never do.

Di, what you are saying is that the difference between prayer and animal sacrifice is that you like one and don't like the other. At the root, they are expressions of the same thing - an attempt to communicate and influence a divine being.

That's a lot different from the King of the UK calling for a National Day of Prayer during war-time as a 'one-off event' and in response to a national crisis.

And the monarch of the UK is not an elected government leader anyway, so they're not a political figure.

Indeed. There are gradations in these things.

Personal prayer - great!

A President is moved to pray publicly at some special junction - fine, though I hope he is doing more than just praying.

A President addresses the country inviting people to pray with him at times of national crisis or celebration - OK, but I'd watch the guy for symptoms. Down that road lies George W's "God told me to do this so I must be right" village.

The Congress directs the President to call the country to prayer once a year - not fine. Not fine at all. Absolutely none of their beezwax.

Why not have a National Day for Atheists to not pray.

Indeed. What if the Congress announced a day to acknowledge rational thinkers for their contribution to this country. On this day, the President would encourage people to abstain from praying or communing with supernatural in any way, applying themselves instead to strictly pragmatic solutions to theirs and the worlds problems. Any problem with that?

[MithLuin]

Presumably, that's every day.

The US has observed the Nat'l Day of Prayer every year since 1952 (and intermittently before that). It seems odd to me that people would only notice this might not be constitutional 60 years later. I don't think it violates the establishment clause, because presidential proclamations are just glorified advice that people can do with what they will.

Now, if anyone tries to pass a law saying everyone has to pray, that would be messed up on a lot of levels.

But I don't really care about any of the proclamations designating national days of whatever, so if there isn't a presidential proclamation, that's not a big deal. I'm pretty sure the groups that were planning to have events that day will still have them, and will have them in years to come with or without an endorsement from the president.

[Cerin]

On this day, the President would encourage people to abstain from praying or communing with supernatural in any way, applying themselves instead to strictly pragmatic solutions to theirs and the worlds problems. Any problem with that?

That seems a bit forced. There would be no need to mention abstaining from the supernatural in order to celebrate rational thinking for a day. After all, the national prayer day doesn't include an admonition to abstain from rational thinking on that day.


So the problem isn't with a believing President asking believing citizens to pray with him, it's having a law that designates such a day? I agree that it would be more meaningful if engaged in spontaneously, rather than as a planned event.

[Frelga]

Absolutely, Cerin, it is having the law that I feel crosses the line. A believing President asking believing citizens to pray with him, as you say, is a different matter and I don't see it as controversial.