U.S. Election Night 2008

Discussions of and about the historic 2008 U.S. Presidential Election
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Cenedril_Gildinaur
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Post by Cenedril_Gildinaur »

Yes, I agree. One of his early battles will the the Employee Free Choice Act, an Orwellian named act which gives free choice by removing the secret ballot requirement for forming a union.

Guns are a lower priority.
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams
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sauronsfinger
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Post by sauronsfinger »

The free choice to decide to join a union is going to be taken away from the workers?!?!?!

I never heard that. :scratch:
There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers
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Cenedril_Gildinaur
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Post by Cenedril_Gildinaur »

The EFCA removes the requirement for a secret ballot on whether or not to form a union.

It's in the bill, for those who care to find out.
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams
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River
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Post by River »

It's not required but is it forbidden?
When you can do nothing what can you do?
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Cenedril_Gildinaur
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Post by Cenedril_Gildinaur »

I don't recall if it is actually forbidden, but the unions will not be required to offer it, even if someone demands it. It is not in the interest of the unions to offer it, as they often get enough cards to hold the election and many people who were willing to publicly say "we should vote to hold a union" are also privately willing to vote no in that election.
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams
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Primula Baggins
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Post by Primula Baggins »

I really find myself wondering how many hourly-wage workers would turn down the chance to unionize right now. A lot of them feel pretty powerless, and a lot of them have been messed over for years and years now, with no recourse—stagnant wages, falling benefits, layoffs—while watching top management take home huge bonuses.

I'm not speaking to the secret ballot issue, just how many would vote "no" even in private.
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Cenedril_Gildinaur
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Post by Cenedril_Gildinaur »

You have a point, but I'd still want the ballot to be secret no matter how it turns out. If people with the secret ballot vote "yes", more power to them.
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams
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sauronsfinger
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Post by sauronsfinger »

We still believe in that quaint concept of "majority rule" correct?

So if you have 50 workers at a company and 30 of them sign a card saying they want to be represented by the Untied Widget Workers, thats pretty much a majority by the way I read the numbers. And there sure was a clear decision on the part of every member who wanted to make a decision. Thirty signed the card for a union and 20 did not. In my math book, 30 is a majority each and every time.

Sounds right and fair and perfectly American to me.

Now if the new law said that a minority could bring in the union , well those would be fighting words. I would not stand for it. I would protest strongly. But I am an American and support the principle of majority rule according to the law.

And is it not really weird that in between the time you have a majority of people petition for a union election today, that a bunch of them, especially the leaders, managed to GET FIRED between the time the peition is submitted and the many months later when they finally get around to the actual election. :scratch:
There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers
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Post by Holbytla »

Primula Baggins wrote:I really find myself wondering how many hourly-wage workers would turn down the chance to unionize right now. A lot of them feel pretty powerless, and a lot of them have been messed over for years and years now, with no recourse—stagnant wages, falling benefits, layoffs—while watching top management take home huge bonuses.

I'm not speaking to the secret ballot issue, just how many would vote "no" even in private.

Actually a fair number. There are lots of reasons of course, but one I know of for certain is that there is no guarantee of higher wages but a certainty of paying dues. People fear losing money.

And before any vote takes place you have to garner enough signatures to even request a vote. That stops the process many times well beforehand.
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Cenedril_Gildinaur
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Post by Cenedril_Gildinaur »

So you oppose the secret ballot, SF?
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams
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sauronsfinger
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Post by sauronsfinger »

Secret ballot - majority rule - the American Way - I am all for it.
There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers
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Cenedril_Gildinaur
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Post by Cenedril_Gildinaur »

So you support the secret ballot. Unfortunately the EFCA attacks the secret ballot by removing the requirement for the secret ballot.
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams
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sauronsfinger
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Post by sauronsfinger »

Oh - I am sorry. i thought you were talking about voting in PUBLIC ELECTIONS for governmental positions.

I try to keep the affairs of electing my government and other decisions in my life outside of the government apart from each other.
There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers
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Cenedril_Gildinaur
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Post by Cenedril_Gildinaur »

So you do oppose giving those who might be forming a union the secret ballot on that decision?




Why?
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams
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vison
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Post by vison »

Any vote on any subject for any reason ought to be by secret ballot. The only reason NOT to have a secret ballot is because of the intimidation factor.

I am a union supporter philosophically, but oppose any notion that any union certification be held without the secret ballot.
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Inanna
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Post by Inanna »

Whats the reasoning/incentive to remove the secret ballot? I can't think of any.
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vison
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Post by vison »

Mahima wrote:Whats the reasoning/incentive to remove the secret ballot? I can't think of any.
Everyone can see how everyone voted. Intimidation - a guy won't vote against whatever his buddies are voting for if they're watching.
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yovargas
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Post by yovargas »

River wrote:Yeah, there's been a run on gun sales in CO too. It's a bit silly because first of all, Obama doesn't even take office until Jan. 20, second of all, he knows an across the board gun ban would never fly, and third of all, I think he has other things to worry about. But it's their money and I'm sure gun shops and sporting goods stores don't mind.
And fourthly, Obama doesn't favor stricter gun control, if my memory serves me correctly.
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Cenedril_Gildinaur
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Post by Cenedril_Gildinaur »

Well, he has made one speech to that effect. On the other hand his party platform strengthened their anti-gun bais this time around.
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams
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Inanna
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Post by Inanna »

vison wrote:
Mahima wrote:Whats the reasoning/incentive to remove the secret ballot? I can't think of any.
Everyone can see how everyone voted. Intimidation - a guy won't vote against whatever his buddies are voting for if they're watching.
I mean the incentive to change the legislation. You can't have "intimidation" as an incentive to change the legislation. At least, not in public.
'You just said "your getting shorter": you've obviously been drinking too much ent-draught and not enough Prim's.' - Jude
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