The 2008 Presidential Campaign (was Obama Phenomenon 2)

Post by **solicitr** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 6:48 pm

Afghanistan was a fact-finding stop, not a campaigning spot

Fact-finding? I doubt Obama actually learned anything- certainly nothing in his converstion with the base commander couldn't have been picked up at the Pentagon.

A fact-finding trip implies going to find facts: seeing for one's self the situation on the ground, asking questions, listening to the concerns of the men.

Fact-finding? Obama didn't even bother to leave the air conditioning to experience the heat the troops deal with. No, this was a photo-op. Nothing more.

BTW, if Af'stan wasn't a campaign stop, then why did he bring his campaign staff?

Post by **ToshoftheWuffingas** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 6:49 pm

Why do you equate Affleck with Irving, an anti-semite, Hitler apologist, Holocaust denier and a favourite speaker at European neo nazi rallies? Is he that despicable? You may disagree with his politics and the politics of the books he reads but does that mean he should be silenced? Both the authors of the books you dislike are Americans by the way.

ETA Anyway I have seen Irving speak in a round table discussion on British TV. Perhaps we allow a greater range of opinion, who knows. I found his opinions predictably repellent and perfectly revealing of the man.

Post by **N.E. Brigand** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 6:55 pm

solicitr wrote:BTW, if Af'stan wasn't a campaign stop, then why did he bring his campaign staff?

Well, without disputing that every move Obama or McCain makes from now through November has some motive in furthering their campaigns, even on excursions whose primary motive is fact-finding, they still have a campaign to run.

Post by **solicitr** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:00 pm

Well, that's so, NE- but it would be more seemly if this stop in Afghanistan served some function *other* than political- when as far as I can see it had none at all except garnering footage for future commercials.

Post by **solicitr** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:09 pm

Tosh-

I have never said 'silenced.' Especially not in a roundtable format where everybody comes in with a variety of opinions, or any other forum of debate, nor books, speeches, the internet etcetera .

Fine: that's their perogative; but it doesn't fit into a specific context, network news, which is supposed to be, boasts of being, objective and impartial. My problem is not that neo-Marxists are allowed to say whatever they like, but that a 'news' organisation that claims to have no political bias would engage such a one. In other words, my problem isn't with Affleck but with ABC.

Post by **vison** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:19 pm

solicitr wrote:Well, that's so, NE- but it would be more seemly if this stop in Afghanistan served some function *other* than political- when as far as I can see it had none at all except garnering footage for future commercials.

What other *function* could it have served?

I think back to Mr. McCain's earlier trip to Iraq and his visit to a market and the subsequent assertions that it meant things in the city were "safe" - which was true in a way since he was never in any danger whatsoever thanks to overwhelming security. What *function* did that serve?

A man campaigning for high office must use every weapon in his armoury since his opponent most certainly will. Why it is seen as "just politics" when one candidate does it and not the other is beyond me.

Post by **Ellienor** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:20 pm

I'm not sure if this is better put in here or Global Warming, but since it concerns future energy policy of the United States as recommended by T. Boone PIckens, the famous oil dude, I think it's highly relevant to this thread. i'm not wild about the part where we use natural gas instead of gasoline to power our cars, since that is just more carbon, but I'll take it, considering the source.

http://www.pickensplan.com/theplan/

Post by **sauronsfinger** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:22 pm

Some of todays posts remind me of one of my favorite films - the 1942 classic CASABLANCA

Rick: How can you close me up? On what grounds?
Captain Renault: I'm shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here!
[a croupier hands Renault a pile of money]
Croupier: Your winnings, sir.
Captain Renault: [sotto voce] Oh, thank you very much.
[aloud]
Captain Renault: Everybody out at once!

Post by **halplm** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:33 pm

Vison, McCain certainly uses everything as a campaign stop...

And I don't think anyone actually believes that Obama's trip is anything BUT a campaign trip. However, he has constantly denied that, saying it's not at all about the campaign.

He's doing this to try and convince people that his biggest weakness, inexperience with foriegn policy and the military, should not really be seen as a weakness, because he goes to Afghanistan and Iraq, and many other foriegn places...

Fox News has just reported (yes, I'm watching it, which is a first in a very long time...) on Obama's stop in Isreal. Once again, he has shown either extremely deceptive thinking, or complete misunderstanding of the situation there. He made a speech in front of the Israelis, promising an undivided (unified? united? I'm not sure which is the regular term used here) Jerusalum, to roaring applause of course. He then later met with the Palestinians and completely reversed the statement, saying it's not his business to say, and can only be resolved in final peace negotiations.

Post by **solicitr** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:36 pm

Well, vison, at least McCain had the basic decency to stop and chat with the troops.

Post by **solicitr** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:37 pm

Ellie:

Just by sheer coincidence, Pickens has invested heavily in windfarms, and the tax break is set to expire.

But I'm glad to see that he's pitching his scheme as a counter to the *real* threat, foreign energy imports.

Post by **vison** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:42 pm

solicitr wrote:Well, vison, at least McCain had the basic decency to stop and chat with the troops.

Well, one response to that is: "Great photo ops!" Maybe it was only "basic decency", but I take leave to doubt it. The trip to Iraq was fine and commendable, but whatever real "basic decency" it involved was erased quite completely by that little stroll in the market and the subsequent *stuff* about how safe it was.

Everything these two men do is aimed at getting votes. Mr. McCain is as "guilty" as Mr. Obama, no matter how you slice it. I see no fault in it whatsoever, it is the natural function of a politician to seek approval and votes. How else are they going to be selected? By lottery? By birth?

Post by **sauronsfinger** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:44 pm

There is an old saying which goes
"be careful of what you wish for because you just may get it"

For month after month, the critics from the right wing attacked Senator Obama saying that it was a disgrace that he has not gone to the Middle East to see things first hand. They tried to get lots of mileage out of their complaints.

Now, Obama has gone there .... and what do we hear from the right?

"I am shocked and surprised that he is actually using this trip to campaign for President?"

This is rather funny. Claude Raines would be proud.

Post by **ToshoftheWuffingas** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:52 pm

I would expect two intelligent and campaigning politicians to use foreign trips to both work towards their campaigns and to gain first hand information. The two aren't mutually exclusive. The test of their intelligence and judgment is what they do with the information they have gained in private talks. I wouldn't necessarily expect to see those results straight away either. That information has to be weighed against other inputs.

Post by **halplm** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:52 pm

I don't think anyone here is claiming to be shocked. I would guess if anyone out there is actually claiming to be shocked, it's at least somewhat tongue-in-cheek.

The issue isn't that he's using it to campaign, the issue is that he's denying using it to campaign.

That, and all the expected manipulation of the media, media hype, and flip flopping on the same day.

Post by **vison** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:54 pm

halplm wrote:I don't think anyone here is claiming to be shocked. I would guess if anyone out there is actually claiming to be shocked, it's at least somewhat tongue-in-cheek.

The issue isn't that he's using it to campaign, the issue is that he's denying using it to campaign.

That, and all the expected manipulation of the media, media hype, and flip flopping on the same day.

I know. You'd think McCain would have better advisors, wouldn't you?

Post by **halplm** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:56 pm

Is McCain claiming to be shocked?

If so, that's just dumb.

Post by **Faramond** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:58 pm

I don't know who you are arguing with, sauronsfinger.

I don't think anyone has expressed shock or surprise that Obama used the Afghanistan leg of his trip for a little campaigning. solicitr has made a case that the Afghanistan leg was only for the purpose of campaigning, and called that unseemly. I am not convinced one way or the other. I don't much care. The truth is both candidates have done some unseemly things.

I maintain it would be better, in general, if Obama gave the press more access. The Afghanistan semi-campaign stop is a good example of a press freeze-out.

Post by **solicitr** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:59 pm

The issue ultimately is one of hypocrisy. If Obama didn't claim he wasn't campaigning, if he didn't claim to be a 'new kind of politician', this sort of thing would have no traction.

Are any Obama supporters here worried at all by Obama's apparent phobia of unscripted events?

Vison: taking a few minutes to shake some GIs' hands and tell them thank you is meaningful to them, even if there is another motive at work. Obama's snub bugs me. I don't know if my little bells are ringing 'anti-military', or 'elitist,' but they're ringing. It's just bloody rude, you know?

Post by **halplm** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 8:10 pm

A correction from the news, the speech in front of pro-Israeli crowd was a month ago, so that's old news. There seems to be much confusion about what Obama said to the Palestinians today... oh well.