Preliminary Thoughts
- Voronwë the Faithful
- At the intersection of here and now
- Posts: 47148
- Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:41 am
- Contact:
Preliminary Thoughts
There has been a request made that we embark on Tolkien's best-known and best-beloved book, The Lord of the Rings I am hoping that people will be interested in participating in such a discussion; there is certainly much to be said! Before we get started, I wanted to both share some preliminary thoughts, and invite others to do so, in order to hopefully facilitate a more successful discussion in the long-term.
My hope is that this discussion is as broad as possible. I would like it to be open to any kind of contribution, from the observations of a first time reader (if there really are such a person around here), to the most detailed and geeky analysis of those who have read the book dozens of times, as well as the drafts contained in the HoME books, and/or scholarly works by the likes of Shippey and Flieger, et al. I honestly believe that this broad range of input can co-exist, if people are open to letting it do so. I requires a certain degree of cooperation of empathy from all involved, but this is a special group of people, and I am confident that we can do it.
I do think that the best way to organize the discussion is to do it chapter by chapter, but I am thinking that I want to avoid the dynamic of one person (be it me or someone else) opening each chapter with a summary of the entire chapter. Rather, I would like to open up each chapter to discussion to whatever thoughts that anyone wants to share, and let it proceed organically, with people responding to each other's comments and letting it build accordingly. If that doesn't seem to be working, we can always move to a more structured format, but I do want to avoid the type of thing where one person asks a bunch of questions about the chapter and people respond to those questions. I really think that approach is too limiting. But before we get started, I'd like to hear what others think.
So?
My hope is that this discussion is as broad as possible. I would like it to be open to any kind of contribution, from the observations of a first time reader (if there really are such a person around here), to the most detailed and geeky analysis of those who have read the book dozens of times, as well as the drafts contained in the HoME books, and/or scholarly works by the likes of Shippey and Flieger, et al. I honestly believe that this broad range of input can co-exist, if people are open to letting it do so. I requires a certain degree of cooperation of empathy from all involved, but this is a special group of people, and I am confident that we can do it.
I do think that the best way to organize the discussion is to do it chapter by chapter, but I am thinking that I want to avoid the dynamic of one person (be it me or someone else) opening each chapter with a summary of the entire chapter. Rather, I would like to open up each chapter to discussion to whatever thoughts that anyone wants to share, and let it proceed organically, with people responding to each other's comments and letting it build accordingly. If that doesn't seem to be working, we can always move to a more structured format, but I do want to avoid the type of thing where one person asks a bunch of questions about the chapter and people respond to those questions. I really think that approach is too limiting. But before we get started, I'd like to hear what others think.
So?
Last edited by Voronwë the Faithful on Tue Jul 01, 2008 10:41 pm, edited 3 times in total.
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
- Primula Baggins
- Living in hope
- Posts: 40005
- Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:43 am
- Location: Sailing the luminiferous aether
- Contact:
This sounds like a good plan, Voronwë, letting the discussion grow organically. Some chapters will require more time than others!
It might be good to have someone <eyes Voronwë> in charge of nudging discussion on to the next chapter once posts about the current chapter seem to be winding down. Not rushing things, but making sure they don't stagnate, either.
![Smile :)](./images/smilies/77smile.gif)
It might be good to have someone <eyes Voronwë> in charge of nudging discussion on to the next chapter once posts about the current chapter seem to be winding down. Not rushing things, but making sure they don't stagnate, either.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
- Voronwë the Faithful
- At the intersection of here and now
- Posts: 47148
- Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:41 am
- Contact:
Yes, I am willing to take on that role, at least to start, though I might try to recruit people to help as we move long. This is, after all, a bit of a long book.
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
Well I've read it 25 or so times and I can maybe contribute something here and there once I see where this is heading.
I remember being upset when I found out that Bilbo was no longer the "main" character and put the book down for two years.
I remember being upset when I found out that Bilbo was no longer the "main" character and put the book down for two years.
I am curious as to how this is worded. Is it intentional that you use book in this instance? Wasn't it really one story and many books?Tolkien's best-known and best-beloved book, The Lord of the Rings
![Image](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v644/ken9955/m77t022.jpg)
- Voronwë the Faithful
- At the intersection of here and now
- Posts: 47148
- Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:41 am
- Contact:
I'm really looking forward to your participation, Holby.Holbytla wrote:Well I've read it 25 or so times and I can maybe contribute something here and there once I see where this is heading.
Well, I suppose it depends on how we define "book". It true that the full story is divided into six sections that Tolkien called "books", but they weren't meant to be published separately in any way. But he certainly meant it to be one story, published as one book. When he was pushing to have both LOTR and the Silmarillion published, he specifically states that they had "only one natural division into two parts" (being LOTR and the Silmarillion). He states that LOTR is "as indivisible and unified as I could make it." He then adds "It is, of course, divided into sections for narrative purposes (six of them), and two or three of these, which are of more or less equal length, could be bound separately, but they are not in any sense self-contained."I am curious as to how this is worded. Is it intentional that you use book in this instance? Wasn't it really one story and many books?Tolkien's best-known and best-beloved book, The Lord of the Rings
When he abandoned the idea of having it published with the Silmarillion, the publisher did to publish the book in three separate volumes, because of cost concerns and concerns that the public would not be willing to purchase such a massive book. It has, of course, been published in a single volume in recent years, though most people probably retained their three volume sets. I purchased my first single volume version of LOTR earlier this year because I noted that it was standard practice in scholarly works to cite the single volume edition and I do have some references to LOTR in my book, and I wanted them to be consistent with that standard practice.
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
Yeah I remember that from Letters, but I am wondering something.
Since he was constrained to print it in separate volumes, and iirc since he hadn't finished the ROTK when TTT was published, didn't that at least somewhat alter the creation?
Didn't the necessity of publishing three books in fact make them three books and no longer one?
Were the breaks at the end of each book constructed in a way more conducive to three books rather than one?
Since he was constrained to print it in separate volumes, and iirc since he hadn't finished the ROTK when TTT was published, didn't that at least somewhat alter the creation?
Didn't the necessity of publishing three books in fact make them three books and no longer one?
Were the breaks at the end of each book constructed in a way more conducive to three books rather than one?
![Image](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v644/ken9955/m77t022.jpg)
- Voronwë the Faithful
- At the intersection of here and now
- Posts: 47148
- Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:41 am
- Contact:
Actually, the only thing that was unfinished was the appendices. The book itself was finished by 1949, even though none of it was published for another five years!
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
- Sassafras
- still raining, still dreaming
- Posts: 1406
- Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 4:55 am
- Location: On the far side of nowhere
- Contact:
Now here's a topic that sparks my interest .....
Honestly, I don't know how many times I've read LotR .... dozens at least, although I did have a period in the 80's when I don't think I picked it up at all.
I think the idea of allowing the discussion to evolve organically is an excellent suggestion.
Count me in. But probably not until we reach 'Shadow of the Past' .... I invariably skip the introductory chapters .... yes, blasphemy, I know, but I claim a genetic aversion to 'tweeness' in general. It's the reason I still can't get through 'The Hobbit.'
Honestly, I don't know how many times I've read LotR .... dozens at least, although I did have a period in the 80's when I don't think I picked it up at all.
I think the idea of allowing the discussion to evolve organically is an excellent suggestion.
Count me in. But probably not until we reach 'Shadow of the Past' .... I invariably skip the introductory chapters .... yes, blasphemy, I know, but I claim a genetic aversion to 'tweeness' in general. It's the reason I still can't get through 'The Hobbit.'
Am on - and I think the organic way is better! I remember VTSG faltered.... and maybe that was because we tried to do it in a structured way. I was late on many summaries. ![Sad :(](./images/smilies/icon_sad.gif)
Though if we could move on organically to another chapter at a specific point in time, that would be good too.
![Sad :(](./images/smilies/icon_sad.gif)
Though if we could move on organically to another chapter at a specific point in time, that would be good too.
'You just said "your getting shorter": you've obviously been drinking too much ent-draught and not enough Prim's.' - Jude
- Voronwë the Faithful
- At the intersection of here and now
- Posts: 47148
- Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:41 am
- Contact:
Mahima, do you mean a preset schedule, or more of someone saying "okay, it looks like it time to move on".
The problem with a pre-set schedule is that people's real life schedules often don't seem to cooperate, and so inevitably people still have something to say and get left behind. On the other hand, a pre-set schedule keeps things moving along. I can see arguments either way. What do others think?
The problem with a pre-set schedule is that people's real life schedules often don't seem to cooperate, and so inevitably people still have something to say and get left behind. On the other hand, a pre-set schedule keeps things moving along. I can see arguments either way. What do others think?
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
- Primula Baggins
- Living in hope
- Posts: 40005
- Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:43 am
- Location: Sailing the luminiferous aether
- Contact:
Not a schedule, I hope. More like, "If no one has anything to add in the next day or so, why don't we move on?"
"Tweeness," Sass? Them's fightin' words in these parts.
(Though I admit that's often where I start, too—not that I dislike the early chapters, just that I want to be swept up in the story.)
Edit: Cross-posted with Voronwë. I do find schedules problematic. If there's not much to say, why not move on? If we get deeply absorbed, why not linger?
"Tweeness," Sass? Them's fightin' words in these parts.
![Razz :P](./images/smilies/77tongue.gif)
Edit: Cross-posted with Voronwë. I do find schedules problematic. If there's not much to say, why not move on? If we get deeply absorbed, why not linger?
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
Well, either would work. I agree with Prim, that pre-set schedules have problems, but it keeps things moving (as V said). Except that we have to give people time to read the next chapter, right?
So, how about we open a new thread for the new chapter and say.... starting in 2 days or something like that?
So, how about we open a new thread for the new chapter and say.... starting in 2 days or something like that?
'You just said "your getting shorter": you've obviously been drinking too much ent-draught and not enough Prim's.' - Jude
- Voronwë the Faithful
- At the intersection of here and now
- Posts: 47148
- Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:41 am
- Contact:
My intitial thought is that I don't think separate threads for each chapter are necessary. I had thought to keep the entire discussion in one thread, like we did with the Silmarillion discussion. But perhaps this is worth thinking about further. We could, perhaps have more than one thread active at a time, which would give people an opportunity to comment in the previous chapter (or previous chapters, even) after we have moved on, without disrupted the discussion about the current chapter. But would that be too confusing and unwieldy? Hmmmm? I think I still lean towards one thread, but I am definitely open to doing it the other way.
Anyone else have any thoughts about this?
Anyone else have any thoughts about this?
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
I've never participated in a group read of LoTR, so I'll plan on joining in.
I found that having a schedule worked very well for me, for The Warden reading. Of course, I seem to be the only one left reading there, so apparently it wasn't such a panacea for everyone.![MrGreen :D](./images/smilies/icon_mrgreen.gif)
I found that having a schedule worked very well for me, for The Warden reading. Of course, I seem to be the only one left reading there, so apparently it wasn't such a panacea for everyone.
![MrGreen :D](./images/smilies/icon_mrgreen.gif)
Avatar photo by Richard Lykes, used with permission.
- Primula Baggins
- Living in hope
- Posts: 40005
- Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:43 am
- Location: Sailing the luminiferous aether
- Contact:
![Embarassed :oops:](./images/smilies/icon_redface.gif)
Two simultaneous nasty editing jobs have eaten my life for the past two or three months. I apologize for broken promises in that thread, because I still want to finish the book for my own sake.
But that's an example of what can happen. And somehow once I fall out of a scheduled thread, I feel a lot farther behind than in a thread that's wandering along however. Which makes me hide from the thread instead of reading what I can and hoping to post when I can. But that's just me.
Maybe we can try the organic approach and see if it gets too slow and annoying for people?
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
- Voronwë the Faithful
- At the intersection of here and now
- Posts: 47148
- Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:41 am
- Contact:
While I personally do like the structure of a schedule, I think it would be better to avoid one. But let's see what others have to say. This group is a bit Entish, and I don't think trying to force any kind of "hastiness" on to it is going to be productive.
I'm thinking this discussion is likely to take a couple of years, easily.
Anyone have any thoughts about the one thread versus multiple threads question?
I'm thinking this discussion is likely to take a couple of years, easily.
Anyone have any thoughts about the one thread versus multiple threads question?
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
Personally I like the idea of multiple threads, allowing people to work at their own pace, rather than have people commenting on Chapter 1 while others are crossposting about Chapters 2 and 3. I'm sore we'll run into the occasional, "As I said in the Chapter 3 discussion" issues, but I think thats preferable to the alternative where people may feel they've fallen too far behind and just stop. It also gives those, like myself, who might be interested in comparing the HoME versions more time to do so.
The Vinyamars on Stage! This time at Bag End
- Rowanberry
- Bregalad's Lost Entwife
- Posts: 1091
- Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2005 10:15 pm
- Location: Rooted in the northern woods
- Contact:
I think VTSG faltered in that, nobody was willing to do the introductions any longer, and some who had promised to do so just disappeared before it was their turn... ![Sad :(](./images/smilies/icon_sad.gif)
Some kind of a loose schedule might be good, If we want to keep the discussion in one thread; no fixed time for each chapter, but rather something like Prim and Mahima suggested. Otherwise, it would be more clear to have different threads for different chapters.
I'm in, for as much as I have time for it.
![Sad :(](./images/smilies/icon_sad.gif)
Some kind of a loose schedule might be good, If we want to keep the discussion in one thread; no fixed time for each chapter, but rather something like Prim and Mahima suggested. Otherwise, it would be more clear to have different threads for different chapters.
I'm in, for as much as I have time for it.
![Image](http://www.thehalloffire.net/albums/Rowanberry/rowan_sig.jpg)
See the world as your self.
Have faith in the way things are.
Love the world as your self;
then you can care for all things.
~ Lao Tzu
-
- Posts: 1579
- Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2005 3:34 pm