The dangers of religion

For discussion of philosophy, religion, spirituality, or any topic that posters wish to approach from a spiritual or religious perspective.
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yovargas
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Post by yovargas »

Voronwë_the_Faithful wrote: But I look to the example of some of the priests in Germany who risked their lives (and sometimes lost them) in order to help save the lives of Jews and others persecuted by the Nazis. They found the strength to do that through their faith. That doesn't negate the bad things that have been done over the years in the name of religion. But neither do those bad things negate the good that their faith (and that of so many others, of all different religions) have led them to do.
I believe that religion, in and of itself, is necessarily either bad or good, but I do think it has a unique ability to magnify us - the good in us can become very good and the bad can become very bad.

But if you're going to take a broad view of humanity, the Morality from Authority (ie. do X because Y said so) is not one of the better moral systems.

And I do resent religion's attempts to hold a monopoly on morality. I do think that is very harmful.
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Holbytla
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Post by Holbytla »

I am curious to know what faith has to do with religion, be it organized or not.

In my mind those are two vastly different things.
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yovargas
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Post by yovargas »

My impression is that the attempt to separate the two is a fairly modern idea.
I wanna love somebody but I don't know how
I wanna throw my body in the river and drown
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Túrin Turambar
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Post by Túrin Turambar »

typically, the former (faith) is necessary for the latter (religion).
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Post by Holbytla »

Ah but is the reverse also true?

Personally?

Faith=Necessity
Religion=Scrutinized wsith extreme prejudice

I am admittedly jaded.
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anthriel
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Post by anthriel »

Lord_Morningstar wrote:typically, the former (faith) is necessary for the latter (religion).
This is intuitive, but not true. There are people active in major Judeo-Christian religions who have shared with us that they do not believe in God.

I believe faith and religion truly are completely different things. They can be linked, and often are, but faith can be found without religion, and religion can be found without faith.

In other words, I agree with Holby. :)
"What do you fear, lady?" Aragorn asked.
"A cage," Éowyn said. "To stay behind bars, until use and old age accept them, and all chance of doing great deeds is gone beyond recall or desire.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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yovargas
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Post by yovargas »

Anthy,

If I asked you "What faith are you?" versus ""What religion are you?", would the answer be any different?
I wanna love somebody but I don't know how
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Post by JewelSong »

yovargas wrote: If I asked you "What faith are you?" versus ""What religion are you?", would the answer be any different?
For me it would be. My faith is a very personal thing..and encompasses the tenets of a number of established religious organizations.

My "religion" is which organization I am affliated with at the time. I have never agreed with every tenet of an organization I have belonged to, although the Quakers came close.

Right now, being in the UK, I am not affiliated with any religion really, since I have not found a church organization that feels like a good fit. But my faith is the same as ever.
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anthriel
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Post by anthriel »

yovargas wrote:Anthy,

If I asked you "What faith are you?" versus ""What religion are you?", would the answer be any different?
Gosh, yov. You do ask the tough ones!

This goes back to what I said before, in another thread... I think the definitions are important, here. To me, faith means "do you believe in a higher power?" It's not something I could label, really. I have the same "faith" that Muslims do, in that way. We both believe in a bigger world, spiritually.

But if you asked me that question, in that way, I would infer that YOUR definition of "faith" was different than mine. I would assume that to YOU, the definition of faith and religion are pretty close. Which they are, I suppose, for most folks. I would answer you according to the understanding that I would assume you had.

If you asked what faith I am, I would say Christian, I suppose. I do believe in Christ. But the label is not perfect, because Christian means so many things to so many different people.

I'm kinda wacky with my faith, I know. I really do think that it is a one-on-one thing between me and The Big Guy (or Gal, I suppose. :)). Labels in general make me itchy, because they imply so many things that may not be true of me. I just feel like the appellation is a bit too... handy.

Religion? I dunno. Christian? But that's not good enough for most folks. They want to know what flavor Christian you are. They want to know what the name is on the church you attend. Because that helps them to understand, or assume that they understand, lots of stuff about you. People do like to sort other people out.

What religion am I? I seldom actually go to a church, but if I do, the one down the street is non-denominational. I like some things that they are about, and dislike others. Par for the course, with me, official church-going-wise.

What is going to church for, anyway? I have heard that it is good to be part of the community, to feel more connected. I actually feel the most connected to a bigger spiritual world when I am by myself, in the woods. Which religion is that?

:scratch:
I am not affiliated with any religion really, since I have not found a church organization that feels like a good fit. But my faith is the same as ever.
Jewel, I think you and I are very much on the same page, here. :hug:
Last edited by anthriel on Wed Jul 04, 2007 3:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"What do you fear, lady?" Aragorn asked.
"A cage," Éowyn said. "To stay behind bars, until use and old age accept them, and all chance of doing great deeds is gone beyond recall or desire.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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Post by MithLuin »

Yea, definitions! Sorry, Nin, but this group likes to dissect and define everything before getting around to responding to your original point. Just the way we are ;).


I was taught a wonderful definition of religion when I was 12 years old. It is: what we do because of what we believe.

This is personal religion, as distinct from institutionalized religion. In other words...what actions do we take that are inspired by our own beliefs? We all do stuff for that reason, and it may never include "going to church on Sunday" or variations thereof.

What we believe is our faith. Do we believe in God? Do we not? If so, what kind of God is he? What is our relationship to the divine? What meaning does this question even have? What makes an action moral? What is important in life? Etc, etc, etc. But we can sit at home and think and believe these things, and no one would ever know.

What we do about our faith (whether it makes sense, is good or bad) is religion. Whether it is refusing to wear a strapless dress or praying in the morning or having our kids baptized or not eating pork or donating our old clothes to Goodwill or not buying stuff made in sweatshops...or yes, setting off a bomb at an abortion clinic or embassy. When our beliefs translate into action, that's religion - our religion.

Before I turn a spotlight on humanity, I like to at least take a peak at my own life. Usually, I do so briefly and silently (I know, shocking - I can be silent!), but this time I think I have to be a bit more forthright. In my own life, is religion a good thing or a bad thing? The actions inspired by my beliefs...do they help me? Do they help others? Without getting into details, the good outweighs the bad. But it's not a simple scale to create. What pulls me away from the bad? What drives me to it? What is the strongest motivation for me to be selfless and good? In other words...my life isn't static. I cannot erase religion from it. But how are my actions being shaped by my beliefs, and how much denial goes into this? Tough questions!

If I cannot come up with pat answers for me (whose life, thoughts, beliefs and actions I know intimately), I will probably have trouble coming up with a good, general answer for the world. Religion, in and of itself, cannot be labelled "good" or "bad." Erasing religion is impossible - people will always act on their beliefs, whether they are good: human freedom, respect for everyone's dignity, etc...or bad: "we are better than you," and "I deserve ***"

As far as religious institutions go, there are good and bad ones, and most of them have a checkered history. But yes, members of the same church helped perpetrate the Holocaust...and died in it. History will always have its Osama bin Ladins and High Inquisitors. Excusing such people would be absurd...and so would equating them with every person who has ever been part of organized religion.

As much as I find anarchy attractive (everybody leave me alone!), I think that the entire purpose of living in a society governed by laws is that 'excesses' brought on by power and money being concentrated can be...held in check. Not corrected, because people will always be clever and devious. But held in check. But that does not answer the question of how you can inspire people to be good, loving, tolerant people.



The world's problems do not have just one answer. Getting rid of organized religion is not going to have any impact on the homicide-a-day in my city. That is directly tied to the thriving drug trade - which happily ignores all the local places of worship (mostly storefront churches). But to be less flippant...it wouldn't solve the problems in the Middle East, either. Obviously, religion has a huge role there...but it isn't just about religion. Give everyone amnesia so they don't remember that they are Muslim or Jewish or whatever the Kurds are....and that might help, but it isn't going to change the situation of who gets what land (and what water). Former Yugoslavia can find plenty of things to hate each other for in addition to religion.

And yes, the Europeans never would have gone on Crusade if it hadn't been preached and endorsed by the Church - the main (though hardly only) motivation was religious. But the Reconquista would have happened anyway. And that is not all the Church did in its long history in Europe...they preserved Roman law (well, sorta) and many other things that led to modern European civilization. The good and the bad are hopelessly intertwined.....


Nin, I know your experience of religious people hasn't been positive. But keep in mind that the ones you meet online are sharing what they believe...what they do about it is something different. That is easier (or more honest) to see in personal aquaintances.
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yovargas
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Post by yovargas »

Great post, Mith. :)
I wanna love somebody but I don't know how
I wanna throw my body in the river and drown
-The Decemberists


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anthriel
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Post by anthriel »

Except for the anarchy part. That was disturbing. :P



(Great post, Mith!)
"What do you fear, lady?" Aragorn asked.
"A cage," Éowyn said. "To stay behind bars, until use and old age accept them, and all chance of doing great deeds is gone beyond recall or desire.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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Post by Crucifer »

Is disagreement the same as talking down to?
No. Some people respectfully disagreed with me.

Some people spoke down to me.

*ends this discussion*

Faith is not the same as religion. Religion is the concept. Faith is the real belief.
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Anthriel wrote:I actually feel the most connected to a bigger spiritual world when I am by myself, in the woods. Which religion is that?
The same one I belong to, apparently. I think I have said this before, but my teacher, Mamady Keita, often says he believes in two things. He says he believes in nature, and he believes in being good to people. That works for me. When I am in a Redwood forest, I can not help but feel God's presence. And when I do something good for someone else, I feel that much closer to that infinite spirit of Love.
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Post by Cerin »

No one seemed to have trouble understanding the question posed in the thread, "What Faith Have you chosen?" Yet people seem to want to separate the concepts of faith and religion.

Faith is believing something you can't know. When yov asked, 'What Faith have you Chosen,' he was asking, what unknowable things have you chosen to believe? And those who responded chose the religious label that we thought would most accurately indicate to people what things we believe. Those labels describe different religions -- i.e., different sets of beliefs.

So, a religion is a particular set of things a person chooses to believe. The word 'religion' describes the what, the word 'faith' describes the believing.

It may be that the set of things a person believes isn't accurately enough described by any religious label, that they can comfortably identify themselves with a particular religion. But I would suggest that isn't because there is anything inadequate about the term 'religion' (set of beliefs), just that there doesn't currently exist a label for that particular set of beliefs.

So the kind of vague idea I'm getting that religion is a dirty word while faith is a good one, doesn't quite make sense to me.
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Post by baby tuckoo »

The opposite of "Faith" is not "No Faith."


The opposite of "Faith" is "Certainty."
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Post by Cerin »

If certainty means knowing, then I agree, bt. If certainty implies one can't feel quite sure about the thing believed, then I disagree.
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Post by Holbytla »

When someone asks what faith you are, it is typical to correlate that with religion rather than mince words or argue semantics.

However there are some people (me) that feel religions have caused too much harm in this world and are as beset by problems as any large group.

I want no part of any organized religion.

That does not mean I have no faith.

There is a distinction.

Now if you want to call my faith a religion, then be my guest, but as far as I know I am the only practicing member of Holbytaniarism.
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anthriel
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Post by anthriel »

Well, if you offer walks in the woods, I'm in. :)
"What do you fear, lady?" Aragorn asked.
"A cage," Éowyn said. "To stay behind bars, until use and old age accept them, and all chance of doing great deeds is gone beyond recall or desire.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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Post by Primula Baggins »

If you offer rides in the desert, I'm in. :)
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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