Bad Language?

[anthriel]

I certainly don't have any urge to and can't recall knowing anyone who did. I just use it whenever or however it feels right or good to do so. That is all. And that is, almost entirely, with my friends.

You don't know anyone who seems to have an urge to use profanity? I do. In fact, sometimes I AM that person. My language is not pure, either.

But, of course, I am STILL talking about my kids, when I talk about limiting the swear words in my home. My 10 and 11 year old kids.


This really isn't a controversy for me... y'all are lovely adults, and I am sure your language is completely fine. I am not judging you and your habits when I say I will limit my children's language in my home.

But I will limit them, nonetheless.





I think I may edit the title of this thread.

[nerdanel]

Wait, I thought this thread was about the Swear Agenda which we Swearers are advancing by pressuring Anthy to change the way she raises her kids! Drat! Foiled again! I am offended that our brilliant (f******) logic hasn't persuaded you, Anthy!

Actually...I didn't realize, at first, that we were supposed to be talking only about kids. When I came into this thread, some people were already talking about swearing at work, and I thought that we were discussing the appropriateness of profanity in all different areas. So, not only was I not trying to comment on how parents should raise their pre-teen kids...I didn't even realize that that was the only official subject for discussion. Oops.

PS Mith, congrats on your hypothetical, perfect children! You know, if I could have perfect children, I might consider changing my mind about not having them.

Erm, I just meant, by the time they were 20, I would trust them to make good choices.

I think this is important, though, because this seems to be where parents have a hard time letting go on the other end. When you say, "they can do as they please" at twenty and really mean, "I would trust them to make good choices," those things seem to add up to, "I'm fine with them doing as they please as long as they make precisely the choices I approve of." I'm not arguing with you, because neither of us has kids so it's somewhat moot, but I'm using your comments to point out something that a lot of parents seem to do once their kids go off to college, and that I think is a mistake (*prepares for the parents to pounce* ). Many parents of young adults seem to conflate "S/he isn't making the choice I would prefer" with "S/he clearly lacks the maturity to make her own choices, and I must swoop in to protect him/her from them!" Normally leads to problems in the parent/child relationship, regardless of who is technically "right". I think there needs to come a point where parents...if not trusting in their kids' choices, are just accepting of them. And I don't think that ever happens if parents are hung up on "good choices" as "only the choices I would prefer for them to make." (obviously, parents should still be advisors on the big stuff and point out the foibles and errors of judgments that we are so prone to make - I'm not saying they shouldn't care!)

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I am offended that our brilliant (f******) logic hasn't persuaded you, Anthy!

I am going to ask that people not continue to get around our word filter by starring out part of the word, unless it is necessary to make some point that is germane to this discussion.

Thanks for your cooperation.

[anthriel]

Wait, I thought this thread was about the Swear Agenda which we Swearers are advancing by pressuring Anthy to change the way she raises her kids! Drat! Foiled again! I am offended that our brilliant (f******) logic hasn't persuaded you, Anthy!

Actually...I didn't realize, at first, that we were supposed to be talking only about kids. When I came into this thread, some people were already talking about swearing at work, and I thought that we were discussing the appropriateness of profanity in all different areas. So, not only was I not trying to comment on how parents should raise their pre-teen kids...I didn't even realize that that was the only official subject for discussion. Oops.

Okay, nel. I hear you.



Voronwë had said I could change the title of the thread, and so I did, hoping it would clarify the discussion... we do seem to have more than one topic going on.

Perhaps changing the title was a heavy-handed move.

I'll change it back.

[TheEllipticalDisillusion]

At 20, my parents never tried to hold things over me like "if you don't do A, I'll stop helping with your school payments." I think that makes things very hairy and breeds a lot of anger.

[Primula Baggins]

Nel, when parents talk to other parents we often make judgments about things our kids do, even our adult kids.

That doesn't mean we make any attempt to impose our wishes on those kids when we're talking to them.

You tell us we mustn't interfere, but I think you're assuming, falsely in most cases, that wishing something were otherwise, when speaking to other parents, means we are in there trying to make it otherwise when we're dealing with our adult children.

We all learn, sooner or later, that we have to let go our control over our children. That doesn't mean we ever stop noticing or caring what our children do. "I trust them to make good choices" is a proud statement, not a grab for control. And if they don't make the choices we would make for them, that's going to be painful for us to watch, even if we never say a word.

The only way to stop feeling that pain is to entirely stop loving our kids. Isn't going to happen.

[Frelga]

At much younger than 20, I avoid blackmailing my son as much as I can. He still has to live by my rules, of course, but I am trying to set up consequences that have at least some relationship to the transgression. And if there aren't any, why, maybe he's not doing anything wrong.

As I've mentioned, he is fascinated with the word poop, and it bothers me. I don't care if there is some highfalutin' reason why it shouldn't bother me. It does. So the consequence for using the word while we are playing is that I give him one warning that I will exit the game next time he uses it. His choice of language makes it no fun for me to play with him, and the rule in my house is that when we are playing, it's everybody's responsibility to make it fun for all players. I haven't yet had to actually stop the game.

Although I will confess that I am not entirely consistent when it comes to enforcement. Just the other day... but first I need to tell you that we often talk about food at dinner in terms of it's health benefits. Carrots are good for eyesight, yogurt for the bones, meat for muscles, that kind of thing (simplified, yes). So the other day I enticed him to eat broccoli by saying that it makes you fart.

[baby tuckoo]

Thus spake Nerdanel.

And very well, may I add, based on my limited experience.

[Holbytla]

No no no. No blackmail here. Just facts.

"Why should I take out the trash, I didn't make the mess?"
"Why should I pay for your tuition? I am not getting the diploma."
"Oh."

"Why shouldn't I swear in front of you?"
"Because I will rip off your arm and beat you with the bloody stump."
"Oh."


See how that works?

[JewelSong]

Holby!

As a single parent, I think I have done a pretty damn good job. And I agree with Nel...there comes a time when the kid is, as I say, "launched." It's not the same time for each kid, but when it comes, you hope and pray that you have been able to give them the tools they need to navigate, a decent moral compass and the ability to seek help when needed.

I must say that I swear like a sailor and it is something that I have tried to rein in at various times. Once, when the kids were in their very early teens, I suggested that we have a "Curse Jar" where if you swore, you had to pay a quarter. "Wow," my daughter said. "We could save enough to go to Disneyworld!" "Yeah," my older son said. "In, like, a week." *sigh*

My kids all swear and they do it in front of me. However, they DON'T do it in front of their Dad, who is far more...conservative than I am. And they don't do it in front of their friend's parents, or in church, or school...so I guess that they have a good sense of when and where.

[WampusCat]

My kids all swear and they do it in front of me. However, they DON'T do it in front of their Dad, who is far more...conservative than I am. And they don't do it in front of their friend's parents, or in church, or school...so I guess that they have a good sense of when and where.

That's the point, I think: to know what sort of language is appropriate when and where. What is perfectly ok in one situation might not be in another, and if you swear by reflex, you're likely to end up hurting yourself.

Speaking of what's ok in one place isn't in another, here's a true story.

A friend of mine back around 1980 was a newspaper photographer. He was assigned to take photos at a High Holy Days service in the city's only synagogue. He consulted with the rabbi, of course, and knew the exact point in the service when he would be allowed to shoot discreetly.

So he peered through the cracks between the large doors, waiting for his cue...and didn't see the man who came from the side and threw open the door to slip out.

Wham! The door slammed in right in his face.

In pain, he reacted without thinking. And that's how a loud "Jesus Christ!" echoed through the building and interrupted Jewish prayers.

I don't believe he was invited back.

[elfshadow]

My parents never had any problems with me or my brothers swearing as long as it wasn't excessive. I actually learned every swear word I know, with the exceptions of a couple that are more sexually oriented, from my father. I suppose they understood that sometimes swearing is a harmless way to release anger. Of course, other times it is not so harmless. I agree with Wampuscat that the key is to be able to determine for yourself when cursing is appropriate and when it isn't. I can say things around my peers that I couldn't say around my grandmother. In small doses I don't see a problem with it, but when it dominates the conversation and obscures the meaning of what you're actually saying, it becomes frustrating.

[axordil]

although perhaps it contributes to my split infinitive issue

No such thing. An invention of repressed Victorian grammarians of the worst (that is, self-appointed) sort.

Carry on.

[yovargas]

I decided to by bus on Wednesday go.



Bad Language?

[Primula Baggins]

Yes, as is "I decided emphatically to state my opposition to his most recent proposal."

Or "I decided to state emphatically my opposition to his most recent proposal."

Or "I decided to state my opposition to his most recent proposal emphatically."

Or indeed anything but "I decided to emphatically state my opposition to his most recent proposal."

[Frelga]

I decided to by bus on Wednesday go.



Bad Language?

Bad English, anyway. Good German, I think.

[Primula Baggins]

Modifiers go where they can modify what they're supposed to modify, even if that means splitting an infinitive. Where would you move "almost" in "The board requested to almost double user fees"?

It's so liberating when you realize this!

[Erunáme]

*doesn't even know what splitting the infinitive is*

*feels dumb*

I never did do well with grammar in school, yet somehow I managed to write well enough.

.
.

I feel the need to make myself clear as I don't want people thinking the wrong thing about me and that affecting their respect of me. I don't swear constantly. I rarely do it in coversation and if I do, it's with people at work who would do so as well. My swearing is limited to when I'm angry: someone cuts me off on the road or does something else dangerous, cat tips over a glass of water, I stub my toe, etc.

[Primula Baggins]

You sound like all the rest of us humans, Eru.

An infinitive is the "to" form of a verb: to go, to sit, to talk, etc. Splitting one means putting words between "to" and the verb: to boldly go. It's actually okay to do that, but a lot of people believe (have been taught) that it isn't.

Here endeth school.

[Jude]

Modifiers go where they can modify what they're supposed to modify, even if that means splitting an infinitive. Where would you move "almost" in "The board requested to almost double user fees"?

It's so liberating when you realize this!

The board almost requested to double user fees.