Heathens

For discussion of philosophy, religion, spirituality, or any topic that posters wish to approach from a spiritual or religious perspective.
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Ethel
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Post by Ethel »

Voronwë_the_Faithful wrote:
Pagan definitely isn't the right word - I do not worship Zeus.
I know many people who proudly identify themselves as Pagans, and none of the them worship Zeus. Rather, they worship the Great Spirit or Mother Earth.
I was thinking more of the ancient definition of pagan. From the day of Julian the Apostate, say.

Voronwë_the_Faithful wrote:Heathen, on the other hand, implies a complete lack of spirituality. In other words, not just Godless in the sense of not believing in the Jewish/Christian/Islamic God, but not believing in any spirituality and instead being caught up in the material world.
If the word bothers you, I don't insist on it.
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

That's okay, Ethel. If it pleases you to use the word to describe yourself, that's your business, not mine. :) I just need to go through a bit of an intellectual exercise to separate the way you use the word from the way that I understand it, because I certainly know for 100% certain that you are a spiritual person.
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
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Post by vison »

Neither heathen nor pagan is exactly right. But "agnostic" sounds too posh, and "atheist" is wrong, for me.

I shall coin a word.

Be sure I shall.
:)
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Post by JewelSong »

How about "Seeker?"
"Live! Live! Live! Life is a banquet, and most poor suckers are starving to death!" - Auntie Mame

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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Ooh, I like that.
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
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Post by JewelSong »

Or maybe "Wandering Wonderer." Except that's quite a mouthful. But it seems to denote the idea of appreciation of the beauties of the earth and the mysteries of the Divine...and that the person is looking.

I like it...I think we should all Wonder.
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Ethel
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Post by Ethel »

JewelSong wrote:How about "Seeker?"
'Seeker' has the right meaning. But... ever since Harry Potter it always makes me think of Quidditch. :P
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Post by Holbytla »

I believe in something, just not sure what.

Think I am going to form my own one man cult.

Holbyism.
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vison
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Post by vison »

I'm afraid "seeker" doesn't describe me. I am not looking. I'm already there, and I found it long ago.

"Appreciator"? "Lover"? "Child of the Universe"? "Grain of sand"?

We once had a Premier of British Columbia who called himself "Amor de Cosmos". His "real" name was William Alexander Smith.

Here is a Wikipedia article about this most fascinating man:

Bill Smith

I guess I could be "Amor de Cosmos" with no political ambitions!
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Post by Nin »

Seeker does definately not sound right for me - too much of a quidditch association as said, and not enough of religion connected to it.

I really like heathen - maybe also because it holds somehow this aspect of opposition to traditional monotheistic religions which is dear to me. I am opposed to pagan - even though in the two languages I speak most, there is only one word for the two aspects. A pagan is for me still someone who believes in some kind of organised religion - even if not montheistic or not representing the majority. For me, any idea of representing the driving force behind the universe by any word be it the Great Mother, Spirit or whatsoever seems condemned in advance. I refuse also all cultic (do you say so in English) and ritual aspects and they are, at least for me, strongly connected to the word of pagan.

If asked in a serious, academic discussion, I might say agnostic. But I like heathen, maybe because I like to provoke sometimes - and be it only to provoke some thinking.

Or maybe I'm just too much of a linguist not to play with terms and their general comprehension, but also too much of a realist to be pessimist for any names as poetic as those proposed by vison.

Really, in the end, I like heathen.
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Post by TIGG »

vison wrote:I'm afraid "seeker" doesn't describe me. I am not looking. I'm already there, and I found it long ago.

"Appreciator"? "Lover"? "Child of the Universe"? "Grain of sand"?
I'll join you in this one Vison.

actually your online name embodies you. you are a vison, a vison of what I aspire to be, brave, courageous, gentle and kind, you are so multi faceted and so geninely good.

I have no 'faith' but I have a religion if you choose to call it that, in that I have a belief, I believe we live once, that we must leave our mark on this wold, and that it must be marked for good, not evil, that every living creature has a right to life. That no one person has the right to choose the time of death of another, or how it should happen.

Oddly, I am drawn more an more to an oriental belief, I believe there are rythyms in this world and in our lives, I worship nature. I have had too many 'readings' that have been more accurate than I can logic away, not to believe that parts of our lives are mapped out for us, it is the color and texture we add to our existance. But I do not believe in a God, It would distress me terribly to believe a being of power could allow and condone and actively prompt some of the holacousts and disasters of our time.

I wish to tread gently on this earth, to leave memories of a compassionate person, who had the courage to do what was needed, but who treated others with respect.

That is my 'religion'. - and I find Agnostic, Athiest and Heathen to be words that box me, I don't want to be 'boxed' or labelled. So with all due respect to those others here who do not pray to a god, I will say simply that 'I am me', not a heathen, not agnostic, not an athiest, Pagan, is perhaps a word I would accept if I had to take a label.

I would love to learn more about other 'religions', about Wiccan's and Native Americans' about Buddists. I seek a more enlightened soul.
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Ethel
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Post by Ethel »

My older brother - this is the one who was killed in 2004 - retired early from AT&T and moved to southern Arizona in the 1990's. He had always been a troubled, angry, and violent man. He had a terrible childhood, as I did; indeed he was not a small part of what was terrible about my own childhood. Yet I never stopped loving him. For all his troubles he was a person of incredibly vitality, a contagious sense of fun, and a wonderful, black sense of humor. He had this big, booming laugh that was irresistable.

(Yes, I'm going somewhere with this.)

After moving to Bisbee, he took up with a woman who had been a Hindu nun. Made friends with a Yaqui Indian. Started formulating this religion/philosophy based on Southwestern Native American beliefs. At intervals he would announce something startling like, "I was a shaman in a former lifetime." We, his sarcastic siblings, would just raise an eyebrow.

But... here's the thing. What he was exploring was really good for him. There was a very perceptable change in his persona - he was so much happier. So much more positive. We all saw it. That edge of anger and violence was gone, for the first time ever.

He took to adjusting people's chakras (Link - I have no idea whose website this is, but Ron Gregory was my brother; this is definitely his writing) and performing ceremonies involving the Great Circle. He had what he referred to as a "practice" - never got paid much for what he did, I don't think; mostly barter stuff; but there were eventually a lot of people who thought he had saved them from depression and bad childhoods and so forth.

The Great Circle ceremonies were... nice. He'd first have everyone purified by wafting burning sage smoke at them with an eagle feather (he was able to get these from his Indian friends). Then he'd have everyone select a rock. Then he'd arrange people at various points on a circle and talk about the meaning of north, south, etc. Then he'd have the people in the circle talk about whatever was being celebrated - a wedding, perhaps - and then place their rock within the circle. (You took them with you when you left - I have quite a collection.) Once we had a "cleansing circle" at my mother's house after she'd been particularly cranky and difficult during a Christmas vacation. (She actually seemed to enjoy it - Ron could be very disarming. He didn't care whether you believed or not, as long as you were willing to go along with the program. He also didn't mind laughing at his own beliefs.)

He made hand drums from hide stretched over a wooden frame, decorated with Native American motifs. I have one, and cherish it. He'd get us all to drum together first thing in the morning and chant in Yaqui.

He and his circle were all into portents and omens. Everything meant something. They were always being "guided" to do things. I once described to him seeing a flock of Canadian geese flying south - how beautiful they were as the early morning light glinted variously on wing and breast. He made a whole fable out of it - South had to do with artistic expression; this was a sign to me that I should investigate that; etc.

His totem animal was a bear. He would have preferred to have a wolf but, he said, he couldn't ignore the signs. They were all into totem animals. One Christmas he told me he had been guided to give me a little carved fetish of a badger - the kind Zunis make, with their medicine bundle on their backs. This was not long after my (horrible) divorce. I was a single mother, and broke, and nearly broken. The badger had something to do with what he saw as my fierce protectiveness of my son.

There must have been 300 people at his funeral. I know there won't be that many at mine. His Indian friends gave us necklaces and eagle feathers. Purified us with sage smoke, put us in the middle of the Great Circle, led a couple hours of chanting, drumming and talk. A Cherokee woman he had known, who clearly loved him, told me that Ron had helped them get land and funding for a Native American center near Bisbee. Told me that they had decided to call it Standing Bear Center after Ron.

Do I believe all this myself? No. But he did, and it changed his life in an absolutely positive way. I honor its power and beauty.
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TIGG
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Post by TIGG »

Ethel,

that is incredibly beautiful.

:hug:
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Post by Holbytla »

I think all cultures and religions have something that is unique to them but is also the embodiment of what this world is about. That is to say that I think there is at least a grain of truth to all cultures and religions.
And I also think that no religion or culture is entirely accurate.

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Post by Holbytla »

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Ethel
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Post by Ethel »

TIGG wrote:Ethel,

that is incredibly beautiful.

:hug:
I think there is beauty there too. My brother was killed by hitting an elk on his motorcycle in the mountains at night - died more or less instantly. When his Yaqui friend was talking to us about plans for the funeral he said, "You know, the only animal that can bring down a bear is an elk."

In a way it was a crazy thing to say, but there was an odd comfort in it. (Because it provided meaning and context?) And there's more. The very weekend before he was killed, my brother came to visit me, for the first time in maybe 10 years. We had dinner at a nice restaurant downtown, and I took him & his friend to see the bank where I work. A former owner was quite the Hunter, and there are stuffed animals all over the bloody place. The one that caught my brother's attention was the elk. He kept going back to it and saying, "But most elk are bigger than this. This is a small one." And so forth.

Later that night we sat on my porch wrapped in blankets, sipping Irish whiskey and looking at the stars. We had had a very complicated relationship, to say the least. But this was a moment of peace and harmony between us. I remember him saying, "Jan, you're an ace. Just an ace." Like a benediction. Very odd, and like nothing he had ever said to me before.

A week later he was dead.


Oh, and after I got back to work I went to take a closer look at that stuffed elk. "Taken in the White Mountains of Arizona" the plaque says. That's where my brother died.


It's not that I think there was some kind of divine message there. I just loved it that, for a person so involved with meanings, signs, portents - his death was surrounded with several. I know he would have loved it too.
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Post by narya »

:hug: Ethel, it helps to find meaning in this crazy world. Thanks for starting this thread and drawing me out of lurkdom. It may have more levity than some of the other threads in TE, but the jokes seem to be meant in the spirit of comradery.

I was born and raised Catholic, and very strongly into my religion, to the point of becoming a Secular Franciscan (it's an order open to married folks - we take "promises" instead of "vows" and follow the rules of poverty, chastity and obedience only to the extent that it is appropriate for our stations in life.)

Then I lost my conviction about the existance of God, Heaven, Hell and anything supernatural. It was a painful process, giving up the comforting thoughts of seeing my loved ones again in the afterlife, and giving up the idea that if I couldn't do anything else about a problem, at least I could pray.

So I called myself a "retired Catholic" as in, not working at my religion anymore. I regret losing my conviction. I wish I had it, though I know wishing doesn't make things so. I envy people with strong convictions (even if I disagree with them). I don't know what to call myself now.

I probably wouldn't say Heathen. My Tlingit Indian ancestors would be considered Godless Heathens, yet they had a rich spirituality that included a belief in spirits in animals (totems) and inanimate objects, most of which were unfriendly and out to get them. They had a Promethean figure - Raven the Trickster - who stole the necessities of life (light, water, salmon) from the primordial chiefs who owned them. But no God or "Great Spirit" per se. They had a strong love of family and clan, so you can't say that Christians have a corner on that market. But I don't believe in the totems any more than I believe in any other supernatural phenonmena. That little part of my heart is dead, and I don't know how to revive it.

So now I go through the motions. I go to Church. I try to pray, though I don't get the sense that anyone is listening. I live by the precepts of Jesus of Nazereth and the examples of St. Francis of Assisi, more or less. (Rather less than I could, but more than a little.) When people say I'm a good Christian, I feel like I am living a lie, because a Christian's first commandment is to "love God with all your heart, all your mind and all your soul", and I don't. I don't even know how to, anymore.

OK, enough rambling. See you in a week. I'm trying to keep Lent, except on Sundays, and that means no message boarding. It probably won't last, but I try every year.

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Post by Jnyusa »

Just checking in to say how happy I am to see narya posting. :) And to tell Ethel how much her story touched me.

I do believe that our spirits can be tied to the spirits of certain animals, or the spirits of other people. Not sure exactly how or why it happens, but I've felt this strongly myself at times ... that a particular animal was meant to be part of my life, that our relationship was accomplishing something in some other dimension.

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Post by Erunáme »

I have such a sense of peace when reading about your brother, Ethel. Thank you for sharing. :hug:

Jn - that a particular animal was meant to be part of my life.

I've felt this too...and felt a strong connection with an animal.
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Post by narya »

I used to work at an eagle rehab center, mucking out kennels that the recovering eagles were housed in. One time, I remember being surrounded by a cloud of eagle down. To Tlingits, eagle down is a visible blessing, and is sprinkled on groups at a gathering the way holy water is sprinkled on Catholics. It was a spiritual moment for me, though most of me realized it was just feathers.

Though I feel more attraction to some animals than others, the rift between human and animal intelligence is so great that I cannot imagine a kinship or guiding spirit in eagles, wolves, or even my favorite, the nudibranch.

In case you are wondering, this is a nudibranch, a little larger than lifesize:
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