Okay...I'm happy with not having them involved - saves me a re-write for the most part. As for Gil-galad not getting involved, how about I leave it more ambiguous?
For example:
Finarfin: Will Ereinion join this fight?
Eönwë: [shakes his head.] A great fate lies before him, even though we cannot see it clearly yet. Much is at stake if he risks his life.
Finarfin: Surely Ereinion has enough reason to fight? He has suffered more than anyone else of our family…
Eönwë: [Gives him a stern glance.] I have summoned all Eldar, Edain, Dwarves, beasts and birds unto my standard, whosoever does not elect to fight for Morgoth. It will be left to them to answer, if they will. [Fade.]
The History of the Silmarils - a serialization
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Voronwë the Faithful
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I said, "that's very good."
I just said it to myself.
I just said it to myself.
Last edited by Voronwë the Faithful on Sat Jan 04, 2014 3:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
Phew! That means the first instalment is ok'd now, and I can concentrate on the next part, which just needs a little bit more work.
I really appreciate your help, guys...it means hopefully we end up with something everyone is happy with.
I really appreciate your help, guys...it means hopefully we end up with something everyone is happy with.
There is magic in long-distance friendships. They let you relate to other human beings in a way that goes beyond being physically together and is often more profound.
~Diana Cortes
~Diana Cortes
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Passdagas the Brown
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I like it too!
ETA: Just as context for my comments/ suggestions going forward: Given that I have a very strong artistic vision for how to adapt Tolkien to film, I would approach this material very differently than you have, Elen. The dialogue would be much more abbreviated and economical, and while the main characters would be developed as relate able "human" characters, I would spend less time on developing other characters in the modern novelistic tradition. I would also spend a lot less time fleshing out the Sil by giving its "stage actors" more space to pontificate and speechify, and more time on inventing moments that capture the lyrical essence of the mythology. In short, as PJ suggested about the impossibility of him making a GDT film, I could not possibly make an Elentári film!
That's just a long way of saying that my comments and critiques and praise are conscious and appreciative of the style you have chosen. So when I say I like something, or don't think something works, that judgment will primarily be about how well it works with your style.
ETA: Just as context for my comments/ suggestions going forward: Given that I have a very strong artistic vision for how to adapt Tolkien to film, I would approach this material very differently than you have, Elen. The dialogue would be much more abbreviated and economical, and while the main characters would be developed as relate able "human" characters, I would spend less time on developing other characters in the modern novelistic tradition. I would also spend a lot less time fleshing out the Sil by giving its "stage actors" more space to pontificate and speechify, and more time on inventing moments that capture the lyrical essence of the mythology. In short, as PJ suggested about the impossibility of him making a GDT film, I could not possibly make an Elentári film!
That's just a long way of saying that my comments and critiques and praise are conscious and appreciative of the style you have chosen. So when I say I like something, or don't think something works, that judgment will primarily be about how well it works with your style.
That's fine...
I'm not sure how much of the earlier series you have read, but when you talk about "my style" I guess you realize that it is not just my choice of approach, but what I have inherited from the days when more people were contributing. It would have been jarring to suddenly have a change of style for the last couple of series. That said, yes, my personal affinity has always been an emotionally-laden dialogue-oriented approach. Sure the SIL could have been done in a more mythic/legendary style, but one of our objectives was to try and show that the Tale in the SIL could be just as accessible as LotR.
I have often pointed out that I realize there is way too much verbage compare to modern film scripts, but unfortunately when it comes to cutting Tolkien's beautiful language I find it hard to be ruthless enough! The first thing to be revised, if this script is ever revisited in the future, would undoubtedly be to make the dialogue more sparing... Still this project is simply a starting point for adaptation, and merely a framework just to give an idea of how a GOT-ish treatment might work!!
I'm not sure how much of the earlier series you have read, but when you talk about "my style" I guess you realize that it is not just my choice of approach, but what I have inherited from the days when more people were contributing. It would have been jarring to suddenly have a change of style for the last couple of series. That said, yes, my personal affinity has always been an emotionally-laden dialogue-oriented approach. Sure the SIL could have been done in a more mythic/legendary style, but one of our objectives was to try and show that the Tale in the SIL could be just as accessible as LotR.
I have often pointed out that I realize there is way too much verbage compare to modern film scripts, but unfortunately when it comes to cutting Tolkien's beautiful language I find it hard to be ruthless enough! The first thing to be revised, if this script is ever revisited in the future, would undoubtedly be to make the dialogue more sparing... Still this project is simply a starting point for adaptation, and merely a framework just to give an idea of how a GOT-ish treatment might work!!
There is magic in long-distance friendships. They let you relate to other human beings in a way that goes beyond being physically together and is often more profound.
~Diana Cortes
~Diana Cortes
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Voronwë the Faithful
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Passdagas the Brown
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Oh, don't get me wrong! I really enjoy this interpretation (though I didn't realize that the earlier stuff was much more collaborative). It's just quite different than how I would approach it, that's all. What I would do is not just lean towards the "legendary," but lean towards a more fluid, visual story-telling mode, to give it a more lyrical edge. Basically, I would do what Alfonso Cauron would do.
If I had any advice, I would say that you can take some input from folks like Voronwë and me, but ignore the heck out of us when you know something feels right in your gut. I appreciate collaborative work in other fields, but films and scripts made in committee rarely beat those created by one person. The ones that drip with self-indulgence are usually the best, IMO.
And of course, feel free to ignore everything I just said!
If I had any advice, I would say that you can take some input from folks like Voronwë and me, but ignore the heck out of us when you know something feels right in your gut. I appreciate collaborative work in other fields, but films and scripts made in committee rarely beat those created by one person. The ones that drip with self-indulgence are usually the best, IMO.
And of course, feel free to ignore everything I just said!
I quite agree, but for the most part the collaborative process is the most enjoyable part. Although sf once likened writing an episode with me to giving birth to a child!PtB wrote:films and scripts made in committee rarely beat those created by one person.
[yeah, the woman does all the work and suffers all the pain! 
] That has always been my policy!If I had any advice, I would say that you can take some input from folks like Voronwë and me, but ignore the heck out of us when you know something feels right in your gut
But I am also (hopefully) wise enough to know when to take the advice offered 
There is magic in long-distance friendships. They let you relate to other human beings in a way that goes beyond being physically together and is often more profound.
~Diana Cortes
~Diana Cortes
So is it still working? 
I'm not looking to have my ego stoked here, I just need feedback so that I can decide on the best way to do this. If the "filler" scenes are rubbish that simply spoil the flow of the "mythic" battle stuff then the only other way is for me to remove them, leaving just the narrative (in green) with a token description of the visuals to be expanded upon by the Director, and then pick up with the more "human" interaction when everyone is gathered to Eönwë's camp after the victory.
I just felt initially that having the WoW portrayed in one large chunk would be too much...but I don't have a strong gut feeling about how to do this, which is why I was reluctant to take it on it the first place!
Please advise!
I'm not looking to have my ego stoked here, I just need feedback so that I can decide on the best way to do this. If the "filler" scenes are rubbish that simply spoil the flow of the "mythic" battle stuff then the only other way is for me to remove them, leaving just the narrative (in green) with a token description of the visuals to be expanded upon by the Director, and then pick up with the more "human" interaction when everyone is gathered to Eönwë's camp after the victory.
I just felt initially that having the WoW portrayed in one large chunk would be too much...but I don't have a strong gut feeling about how to do this, which is why I was reluctant to take it on it the first place!
Please advise!
There is magic in long-distance friendships. They let you relate to other human beings in a way that goes beyond being physically together and is often more profound.
~Diana Cortes
~Diana Cortes
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Passdagas the Brown
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I admit to not responding well to the very "domestic" scenes- namely the Maglor bit about growing boys, carp and cooking. It just strikes me as forcing water from a stone. I don't buy for a moment that these massive mythic personalities talk about recipes!
The other so-called "filler" I enjoyed a lot more, though, if I am understanding correctly which sections you are referring to. Elrond and his brother, for example, rang truer.
But in general, I would stick with the epic on this one. In the end, it's nigh impossible to "relate," in the modern sense of the word, to the characters caught up in the War of Wrath. In that context, eliciting awe from the audience, in the same way that the FOTR prologue, or a long panning shot of the solar system in context of the Milky Way and it's surrounding galactic neighborhood might do, is a better tack, IMO.
The other so-called "filler" I enjoyed a lot more, though, if I am understanding correctly which sections you are referring to. Elrond and his brother, for example, rang truer.
But in general, I would stick with the epic on this one. In the end, it's nigh impossible to "relate," in the modern sense of the word, to the characters caught up in the War of Wrath. In that context, eliciting awe from the audience, in the same way that the FOTR prologue, or a long panning shot of the solar system in context of the Milky Way and it's surrounding galactic neighborhood might do, is a better tack, IMO.
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Voronwë the Faithful
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Okay, it's all good. I kinda knew it wasn't right - just wanted someone to confirm it for me! TBH I also hate fanfiction like that, which is why I've been struggling with that part . I'm okay expanding on where Tolkien gives us clear boundaries but not with making stuff up as filler where we have pretty much no idea what was going on.
So...I've removed that part at Amon Ereb...does the second "storm"scene stay, or shall I simply run the rest of the WoW as narrated by Eärendil over epic visuals?
If I cut out the storm scene, and simply use the narrative from the book it would look something like this:
Eärendil: Thus Morgoth unleashed all the Maiar he long ago lured to his side. These came in many shapes, mirroring their spiritual kind and power, and the most horrifying and mightiest of his slaves, the Balrogs, demons of fire. But the Eldar did not lose courage, even at the sight of Balrogs, having heard of the valiant deeds of Ecthelion and Glorfindel in Gondolin and they gathered to face their enemies. Yet Eönwë bid them stand aside for these were Ainur - spirits older than the world, and the like would be their opponents…
[The battle of the Maiar is terrible, and the land is shaken with the force of their clash. Eventually the Balrogs are defeated, save one, and it flees to hide deep under the roots of the high mountains in the East. But all the others fall, their Maia spirits leaving the shells of their bodies which crumble to ash and they are like clouds of dark mist to behold. One by one they rise up into the grey sky and each time a wind rises from the West and scatters the cloud into nothingness. Fade.]
* * *
Eärendil: Seeing his hosts were overthrown and his power dispersed, Morgoth quailed, and dared not come forth himself. But he loosed upon his foes the last desperate assault that he had prepared… Out of the pits of Angband there issued a dreadful fleet of winged dragons, and their coming was with great thunder, lightning and a tempest of fire. So sudden and ruinous was their assault that the host of the Valar was driven back…
[camera pan over the Anfauglith where the Host of the Valar are still battling the remnants of Angband's black pits. Ingwion ‘s Vanyar are on the western side of the battlefield, making their way swiftly through a phalanx of Trolls. Suddenly Ingwion stops to stare back with fear in his eyes. Camera pans round to show what he is looking at: A huge creature emerges from the depths of Thangorodrim… black and atrocious, with cold, burning eyes it heaves its massive body into the skies. It is the first of the winged Dragon - Ancalagon the Black: no living creature has his strength, and there is nothing in the air mightier than him. Behind him other Dragons follow, the monstrous, scaly beasts ascending high into the air. The Host of the West gape at this new horror, knowing they cannot fight these creatures. Eönwë ‘s silver trumpets sound the retreat…]
Eärendil: But the Valar sent forth Vingilot, shining with white flame, and about her were gathered all the great birds of heaven, with Thorondor the Lord of Eagles as their captain…
[A faint sound fills the air, like the rushing of water mixed with the cry of a thousand seabirds. The next moment a white ship breaks through the low clouds. With the same majestic slowness like the movement of Ancalagon's wings it floats through the sky, all sails set and filled with a strong wind. Its hull exquisitely curved in the likeness of a swan, the most beautiful vessel ever built. The Elves of Aman as one sigh in awe, recognizing the ship. At Vingilot's helm Eärendil stands, a long sword at his side and the Silmaril on his brow, his silver mail glistening with the dust of thousands of gems Behind him the clouds seem alive with dark patches and moving shadows of every form and size: countless birds of all sizes are following the white sails. At the front of the swarm is Thorondor, Lord of Eagles.]
Thorondor: The time of our revenge is come at last! Arise, O Thornhoth, whose beaks are of steel and whose talons swords! Arise!
[Behind him the giant eagles of the Crissaegrim form the vanguard. They cry in answer to their lord and the Orcs shriek in dread at this sound. The winged Dragons turn from the Army of the Light as Vingilot holds its course right towards Ancalagon. Together birds and white ship meet their enemies. There is a cry of many voices, fair and terrible, and only a heartbeat later a huge body plunges from the sky - an eagle, his throat cut by sharp claws. Then first one, then a second Dragon falls. Elves, Men, Dwarves and Maiar retreat to their camp where they wait and hope. Cut.]
Eärendil: Before the rising of the sun was Ancalagon the Black, the mightiest of the dragon-host, salin and cast from the sky; and he fell upon the towers of Thangorodrim, and they were broken in his ruin…
[Fade back in to the pale light of dawn as Anar rises again behind dark clouds: still the fight continues. The bodies of Dragons lie on the plain, surrounded by countless birds of every sort and size. Eärendil and Ancalagon are battling high above the peaks of Thangorodrim.. Suddenly Anar emerges from behind the clouds and its ray catch Eärendil’s Silmaril which flares to full brilliance, shining right in Ancalagon’s face. The dragon is blinded, and in his panic his head snaps upwards and his flame goes wide. Immediately Eärendil turns his ship about, and the prow of Vingilot tears through the dragon’s left wing. Ancalagon screeches in such pain and rage as the vessel pierces the sinews of his leathery wings that the hosts far below cover their ears, and crouch in terror. As he passes, Eärendil smites the dragon a deadly blow that nearly severs the head from his long neck. Ancalagon’s broken body falls slowly back to earth: Crashing onto Angband he destroys Morgoth's fortress, his body tearing down the cruel walls of black stone and the mighty gates of iron as the ground shakes under his impact.
Camera pans across the landscape showing the tremendous reverberations setting off a chain reaction throughout Beleriand: fiery chasms open in the plains and far away on the coast the sea begins to murmur and become restless. The waves creep higher upon the beaches as slowly and inevitably, Beleriand is engulfed by the waters of the Belegaer. Those on the coast take to their ships whilst all who live inland retreat before the coming water. It moves on continuously, day and night and many are washed away by new rivers or fall into the cracks in the earth that open all around. In some places the ground sinks several meters in an instant. The earth’s grumbling and the hissing of water become a familiar sound to the refugees. Fade.]
* * *
So...I've removed that part at Amon Ereb...does the second "storm"scene stay, or shall I simply run the rest of the WoW as narrated by Eärendil over epic visuals?
If I cut out the storm scene, and simply use the narrative from the book it would look something like this:
Eärendil: Thus Morgoth unleashed all the Maiar he long ago lured to his side. These came in many shapes, mirroring their spiritual kind and power, and the most horrifying and mightiest of his slaves, the Balrogs, demons of fire. But the Eldar did not lose courage, even at the sight of Balrogs, having heard of the valiant deeds of Ecthelion and Glorfindel in Gondolin and they gathered to face their enemies. Yet Eönwë bid them stand aside for these were Ainur - spirits older than the world, and the like would be their opponents…
[The battle of the Maiar is terrible, and the land is shaken with the force of their clash. Eventually the Balrogs are defeated, save one, and it flees to hide deep under the roots of the high mountains in the East. But all the others fall, their Maia spirits leaving the shells of their bodies which crumble to ash and they are like clouds of dark mist to behold. One by one they rise up into the grey sky and each time a wind rises from the West and scatters the cloud into nothingness. Fade.]
* * *
Eärendil: Seeing his hosts were overthrown and his power dispersed, Morgoth quailed, and dared not come forth himself. But he loosed upon his foes the last desperate assault that he had prepared… Out of the pits of Angband there issued a dreadful fleet of winged dragons, and their coming was with great thunder, lightning and a tempest of fire. So sudden and ruinous was their assault that the host of the Valar was driven back…
[camera pan over the Anfauglith where the Host of the Valar are still battling the remnants of Angband's black pits. Ingwion ‘s Vanyar are on the western side of the battlefield, making their way swiftly through a phalanx of Trolls. Suddenly Ingwion stops to stare back with fear in his eyes. Camera pans round to show what he is looking at: A huge creature emerges from the depths of Thangorodrim… black and atrocious, with cold, burning eyes it heaves its massive body into the skies. It is the first of the winged Dragon - Ancalagon the Black: no living creature has his strength, and there is nothing in the air mightier than him. Behind him other Dragons follow, the monstrous, scaly beasts ascending high into the air. The Host of the West gape at this new horror, knowing they cannot fight these creatures. Eönwë ‘s silver trumpets sound the retreat…]
Eärendil: But the Valar sent forth Vingilot, shining with white flame, and about her were gathered all the great birds of heaven, with Thorondor the Lord of Eagles as their captain…
[A faint sound fills the air, like the rushing of water mixed with the cry of a thousand seabirds. The next moment a white ship breaks through the low clouds. With the same majestic slowness like the movement of Ancalagon's wings it floats through the sky, all sails set and filled with a strong wind. Its hull exquisitely curved in the likeness of a swan, the most beautiful vessel ever built. The Elves of Aman as one sigh in awe, recognizing the ship. At Vingilot's helm Eärendil stands, a long sword at his side and the Silmaril on his brow, his silver mail glistening with the dust of thousands of gems Behind him the clouds seem alive with dark patches and moving shadows of every form and size: countless birds of all sizes are following the white sails. At the front of the swarm is Thorondor, Lord of Eagles.]
Thorondor: The time of our revenge is come at last! Arise, O Thornhoth, whose beaks are of steel and whose talons swords! Arise!
[Behind him the giant eagles of the Crissaegrim form the vanguard. They cry in answer to their lord and the Orcs shriek in dread at this sound. The winged Dragons turn from the Army of the Light as Vingilot holds its course right towards Ancalagon. Together birds and white ship meet their enemies. There is a cry of many voices, fair and terrible, and only a heartbeat later a huge body plunges from the sky - an eagle, his throat cut by sharp claws. Then first one, then a second Dragon falls. Elves, Men, Dwarves and Maiar retreat to their camp where they wait and hope. Cut.]
Eärendil: Before the rising of the sun was Ancalagon the Black, the mightiest of the dragon-host, salin and cast from the sky; and he fell upon the towers of Thangorodrim, and they were broken in his ruin…
[Fade back in to the pale light of dawn as Anar rises again behind dark clouds: still the fight continues. The bodies of Dragons lie on the plain, surrounded by countless birds of every sort and size. Eärendil and Ancalagon are battling high above the peaks of Thangorodrim.. Suddenly Anar emerges from behind the clouds and its ray catch Eärendil’s Silmaril which flares to full brilliance, shining right in Ancalagon’s face. The dragon is blinded, and in his panic his head snaps upwards and his flame goes wide. Immediately Eärendil turns his ship about, and the prow of Vingilot tears through the dragon’s left wing. Ancalagon screeches in such pain and rage as the vessel pierces the sinews of his leathery wings that the hosts far below cover their ears, and crouch in terror. As he passes, Eärendil smites the dragon a deadly blow that nearly severs the head from his long neck. Ancalagon’s broken body falls slowly back to earth: Crashing onto Angband he destroys Morgoth's fortress, his body tearing down the cruel walls of black stone and the mighty gates of iron as the ground shakes under his impact.
Camera pans across the landscape showing the tremendous reverberations setting off a chain reaction throughout Beleriand: fiery chasms open in the plains and far away on the coast the sea begins to murmur and become restless. The waves creep higher upon the beaches as slowly and inevitably, Beleriand is engulfed by the waters of the Belegaer. Those on the coast take to their ships whilst all who live inland retreat before the coming water. It moves on continuously, day and night and many are washed away by new rivers or fall into the cracks in the earth that open all around. In some places the ground sinks several meters in an instant. The earth’s grumbling and the hissing of water become a familiar sound to the refugees. Fade.]
* * *
There is magic in long-distance friendships. They let you relate to other human beings in a way that goes beyond being physically together and is often more profound.
~Diana Cortes
~Diana Cortes
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Passdagas the Brown
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Personally, I would cut it as well. For some reason, I had missed that Elrond and Elros were children under their blankets, and that detail also just...I don't know...makes me feel all funny!
Stylistically, I think going all-out epic here is the best route. The excerpt in your post above reads great to me, and would certainly rival PJ's FOTR prologue (which I believe is one of the best sequences across all five films).
Stylistically, I think going all-out epic here is the best route. The excerpt in your post above reads great to me, and would certainly rival PJ's FOTR prologue (which I believe is one of the best sequences across all five films).
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Voronwë the Faithful
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Oh well...you probably won't like the next (very brief) clip either, but we'll see. I could go straight on with the narrative style, but I want to introduce the fully-grown Elrond and Elros, and also it means I can use a messenger character to report on the last stages of the war... it injects a bit of variety!
There is magic in long-distance friendships. They let you relate to other human beings in a way that goes beyond being physically together and is often more profound.
~Diana Cortes
~Diana Cortes
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Voronwë the Faithful
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