Bad Language?

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Erunáme
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Post by Erunáme »

I tend to think the way jewelsong's friend thinks. The f-word isn't all that bad, but taking the Lord's name in vain is...'course I'm guilty of that sometimes and I always get mad at myself when I do it (though strangely I'm not sure if I believe in God or not :scratch:)

I totally blame it on my parents which I think is a fair thing to do. I heard my dad swear frequently. I mean, he gets a bit of dirt on his contact lense or accidentally drops something on the floor when cooking and you hear tons of screaming and swearing. My mom curses some too. So when you grow up hearing this, it's not a surprise when you start immitating (it started at age 12 or 13 for me) it. I didn't say it around my parents in fear of getting in trouble until I was around 17 or so and definately said it when I pleased once I was 18. They never said anything...it would have been somewhat hypocritical if they had.

I know when I can't or can say those sorts of words. I can read the sort of people I'm around and if it's okay or not.
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axordil
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Post by axordil »

Hold on--cursing while computer gaming doesn't count, right? :scratch: :shock: ;)
Erunáme
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Post by Erunáme »

Just like cursing whilst driving or having your cat knock over a glass of water doesn't count either. ;)
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MithLuin
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Post by MithLuin »

My mother cursed like a sailor (whenever she lost her temper) from the time I was a toddler. My Dad never cursed at all at home, though he would use 'mild' language at work (he has a different 'business voice' ;)). My father told my mother that if he ever heard his children using that kind of language, he would leave her.

I don't think he was entirely serious about that, but she did take the message to heart. As she got older, she became embarrassed about her out-of-control temper and worked hard to improve. She said that many rosaries later, the language is cleaned up, and she's right - my brothers didn't grow up hearing what I did.

That being said, my sisters and I have never used foul language. I say "shoot" and "darn"... and that is all. I heard it from a young age, but for some reason, I never picked up on it. I think because I always associated it with... anger. It scared me when I was 3, and it was never something I wanted to do. Gritting my teeth was okay, but that level of vitriol was not. Maybe I'm just weird :D. But anyway, it makes me much less sympathetic to people who think they can't control it - be exposed to foul language does not mean you have to pick it up.

[And please don't be too hard on my Mom - she had 3 children, and I (as the oldest) was only 3 1/2. She was struggling with post-partum or some other hormone-induced emotional roller coaster....and her mother had just died.]

I like more creative curses, I guess. My Mom says "God bless America" when she's angry - and it is a curse, trust me ;). A good friend of hers says "oh, sugar" as her expletive, but I like what one of my students taught me "Sugar honey iced tea." I understand wanting to shout something when you stub your toe or break a glass....I just don't think it has to be the sort of thing that would get a movie rated R for language.

And yes, cussing or foul language is something different from damning people to hell or taking God's name in vain - that is beyond bad manners and is actually wrong - the sort of thing you ought to apologize for.
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Post by narya »

No swearing in my family of origin, or the family I raised, or my workplace. I tend to wince when I hear it, because it is so unusual for me.

I recently read a lovely book - "The Hummingbird's Daughter" - set in Mexico. The men would call each other the most attrociously crude names, as a kind of endearment. Fortunately, the author kept those words in Spanish, and fortunately, I didn't know the translation of most, though I got the drift. :shock:
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Primula Baggins
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Post by Primula Baggins »

I used to yell, "Fudge cookies!" When I was growing up, in a pastor's family, "darn it" was the worst I heard or said. Yet once when I was carrying a freshly made batch of popcorn down to the TV room I dropped it and yelled, um, the S-word. I remember my dad coming out to see what had happened and saying, "Well, if there was ever a time to say that, this is it."
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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Post by Túrin Turambar »

I get the impression that bad language is more common in Australia than elsewhere. Maybe it’s a cultural thing, bought about from being descended from convicts.

People seem to use it a lot in everyday conversation. I know plenty of people whose favourite adjective is f-. Interestingly, bad language (or racist language) is often used without any venom or vitrol. As the old joke goes, your worst enemy is ‘that bastard’ while your best friend is ‘that total bastard’. I remember from the time of the race riots in Sydney recently people saying things like “I don’t have anything against the wogs, just some of them are trouble”. They weren’t being racist per se – as far as they were concerned, it was perfectly fine to use ‘wog’ as a slang term for someone for the Mediterranean area. In fact, the current Premier of Queensland has publicly declared that ‘bloody’ and ‘bastard’ are not swear words but ‘great Australian adjectives’ that people should be able to use in conversation whenever. Australian Parliaments are also notoriously rowdy – especially on a state or local level.
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Post by Erunáme »

You had a positive influence through your dad, Mith. I think that makes a bit of difference compared to someone who's (whose?...I dunno...brain's tired) parents both swear frequently.

Of course, I don't claim that I can't control it, but it does take conscious thought as it's habitual now.
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Post by vison »

My friend Christine has taken to swearing like this: "CONdoleezarice!!!!"

Really, really heavy on the first syllable.

It sounds cool and can't offend anyone.

I have tried it myself!
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Túrin Turambar
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Post by Túrin Turambar »

I’ve heard bad language from a fairly young age (my mother would swear at me when she got angry, for example), but I have fairly good control over it. I’m not sure what it is – I just didn’t really pick it up as a habit (although I can do it to match the people I'm talking to - being able to change style based on context is useful).
Last edited by Túrin Turambar on Sun Aug 27, 2006 2:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Primula Baggins
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Post by Primula Baggins »

:rofl: , vison!

Mr. Prim used to be fond of W.C. Fields' old standby, "Godfrey Daniels!"
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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MithLuin
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Post by MithLuin »

No, Eru, I'm just terrified to lose my temper ;). I associated my Mom's language with a very...palpable anger. She is Irish... I didn't hear about the divorce-threat until I was grown up.

But it is true that she cut it out. So maybe by the time I was old enough to hear my friends start talking like that, I wasn't hearing it at home. But it was a conscience decision on my part never to talk that way...those types of words make me wince, they bother me.

So I always correct my students for that, because I'm not going to not notice ;).

My Dad would always try to figure out why his daughters didn't drink much, either, even though we certainly were around that enough. He concluded that it was from anti-alcohol and drug stuff in school...which is just funny, because no one is really impacted by that. No, I think it had more to do with seeing most of our adult relatives drunk at various times...that is always a turnoff for young teenage girls ;).

But my college friends neither drank nor cursed (hehe, okay, I hung out with people from the evangelical Christian group), so it was easy to maintain that lifestyle....
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Post by Erunáme »

My dad's language is most certainly associated with anger and rage. I was always afraid of it and didn't like it. Of course mine is anger and rage too. I suppose I'm a hypocrite who didn't have the self control to keep myself from becoming what I dislike.
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MithLuin
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Post by MithLuin »

No, you're not a hypocrite for picking up what you knew. Am I a coward for being unable to deal with people who are angry? To this day, I get very, very quiet when I am around angry people. I am afraid what I would do if I lost my temper...probably try to beat someone to a bloody pulp. We both were affected by what we heard, but just in different ways.
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Primula Baggins
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Post by Primula Baggins »

No, you're just human, Eru. No human has the self-control to keep from feeling angry, and every human expresses that anger in whatever ways they've learned.

People who don't curse in anger express it in plenty of other ways. I don't swear much, but in the past I have broken things by throwing them across the room. And a few people hit other people. You may be much better off keeping it to swearing. :P
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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Post by baby tuckoo »

MithLuin wrote:No, Eru, I'm just terrified to lose my temper ;). I associated my Mom's language with a very...palpable anger. She is Irish... I didn't hear about the divorce-threat until I was grown up.
Someone please tell baby tuckoo what is "bad" about a word.

It is a word. It has reference, yes. It might refer to a body part. Are they bad? It might ask God to perform a malevolence upon another. Can you tell God what to do? It might describe a sexual act. We will certainly debate which of those are bad. All these things could suffer more circuitous and gracious description, but the vulgar speaker has chosen that word and it speaks for him or her.

Let it, I say.

I think it is not the word itself but the thought behind. MithLuin gets to the heart of it. Being so broadly used, the F-word has lost its focus and its taboo, unless used between lovers, in which case it is "adult." Context is all.

Is that the point? To protect our children from words at home, in the friendly confines?

I think it is to teach our children the etiquette of language and the power of the emotion behind a word.

It's just a word. Like a candlestick is just a piece of formed brass . . . until it's used as the murder weapon by the butler in the pantry.

Time for beddy. Nightums.
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Impenitent
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Post by Impenitent »

Seems I was spitting in the wind again.
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anthriel
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Post by anthriel »

Looky! I started a new thread!!

:D

Actually, this is a great topic, and I have to admit I am pleased that no one has come down on me like a ton of bricks for being "puritanical" about this... as baby tuckoo said, (and I knew someone would say!) what is "bad" about a word?

Nothing, of course. Except for the fact that the words we choose are one of the few tools we have for communicating with each other. Communication is so important! So what are you really saying, when every other word is f'in' this or f'in' that?

The first thing that I think is that it is a HABIT, as Eru has shared it somewhat is for her. That someone has just gotten into the habit of using the same five words over and over, because they have heard that from other people.

What a limited way to communicate! I guess because I read a lot, and because I have so many words swirling around in my head all the time, I LOVE the opportunity to use exactly the word that I want to use... the English language is so rich in words with nuances and shades of meaning. Isn't it a different message to say, perhaps, that a friend indulged in a diatribe, rather than they threw a f'in' fit? It's just... more descriptive. :)

I also get the impression that someone is very angry when they habitually use language like that, as Mith mentioned. And if someone seems habitually angry, he or she can be a stressful person to be around! I know that this isn't particularly fair, (see the "habit" point above), but it is what I viscerally (I mean... "f'in'";) ) feel when I'm around someone cussing up a blue streak.

My parents never cursed that much around us, and I can't remember getting in trouble for cursing in front of them. I remember getting more in trouble for using words like "ain't"! :) (Yes, even us hillbilly Georgia crackers have parents who discourage lazy colloquialisms... ;) )

A'course, there is very much a double standard in what I expect from my kids and what I do when I'm around friends. :) I still tend to save the really heavy-hitting curse words for really big events (I think the last time I typed or said the "F" word was when I found out that Prim had cancer :( ), but I am no puritan, personally.

I just want my children to have options in their vocabulary. :D
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Post by nerdanel »

I also get the impression that someone is very angry when they habitually use language like that, as Mith mentioned. And if someone seems habitually angry, he or she can be a stressful person to be around!
As someone who habitually uses language like that - although, as I said, mainly in private and around like-minded friends - I actually think this isn't quite right. To the contrary, when someone constantly uses, say, the all-feared f*** word, it is less likely to mean that they are very angry when they use it.

For connoisseurs of the f*** word, it and its derivatives have a subtle range of meanings on which one is equipped to call. There's "That's f****** awesome!" or "You're f****** amazing," to connote strength of excitement, "You little f*****" which can be used either affectionately or angrily, "That f****** scene was hot," for those steamier movies and shows, and even simply "F***!" itself can mean "Damn it, I'm upset!" or "Oh my goodness, that roller coaster was mindblowing!" or "Wow, I simply don't believe that!" When bored, it is possible to attach it to a wide variety of prefixes and suffixes to change the meaning slightly - "F***tastic" and "F***alicious" and such stand to be even more useful than the first. Of course, all these meanings are even before we get to the original meaning of the word - where the possibilities are, quite literally, endless. In fact, now that I think about it, it is one of the most versatile words in my vocabulary. It can mean everything and nothing, and frankly, it's fun to use. Ain't never gonna flippin' apologize for liking it. :D

On the other hand, when someone who rarely curses suddenly curses - especially when it is directed in my direction - I feel stunned, or even attacked. My father, for instance, is one of the calmest, most patient men alive. I might have heard him swear (d/g/s only - NEVER f) once every year or two when growing up, tops. (And, being a good Catholic, he would immediately go to Confession afterwards and not take Communion until he did. :shock:) So when he did get so angry as to say, "G-ddamn," I would feel stunned for one or two days, literally, it shook me up that badly. My mother, too, swore very, very rarely; although she DID get very angry, and physically expressive of that anger, quite often, swearing was very rare (maybe once every 8-12 months, and again, never the all-feared f word). When she swore, too, I felt stunned by its rarity.

Then I started reading more "adult" books - talking Michael Crichton here - and I realized that people swore all the time, and it really Wasn't A Big Deal. It was as though the more often you heard, "D*** that s***," the less it meant. To me, that is more comfortable. You can use these words to express anger, but they don't have that same blindsiding import when they come so rarely and express so much anger.

When I say, "That's f****** amazing!" pretty often and "F*** you, you stupid a******" to the moron driving ahead of me on a daily basis, y'know...it's not the "F-bomb". There is no bomb. It's just a word, and it is being used to express a strong sentiment, whether enthusiasm or anger. Honestly, I'd rather curse and have it Not Be a Big Deal, then do it once a year and have it be this major event that expresses so much anger. So, perversely enough, I feel that it's (some of) the people who are so averse to using these words that have made them into a Big Deal, to be avoided and gasped at and bleeped out on national TV (a huge pet peeve).
I won't just survive
Oh, you will see me thrive
Can't write my story
I'm beyond the archetype
I won't just conform
No matter how you shake my core
'Cause my roots, they run deep, oh

When, when the fire's at my feet again
And the vultures all start circling
They're whispering, "You're out of time,"
But still I rise
This is no mistake, no accident
When you think the final nail is in, think again
Don't be surprised, I will still rise
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Primula Baggins
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Post by Primula Baggins »

Well, mileages vary. :) I'm with Anthy, that it's both possible and more interesting to convey the same opinions and feelings with a more varied vocabulary. The f-word has a mystique, no question, but why does that mean it shouldn't be annoying when people use it constantly? A person who used any other single word in every second sentence would be likely to be considered verbally limited (teenagers and "like, y'know" are one example). What's so special about this one word that the same pattern of dreary repetition is supposed to make its user sound cool?
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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