Hate comes out of the closet
Once a nation that told its children to dream of rising to the heights of knowledge and accomplishment sneers at those who do.River wrote:Mahima, "intellectual" has always been something of a dirty word in the US. It is one of the greatest of ironies, that a country that prides itself so much on innovation despises its thinkers.
The cult of the mediocre. And look at the result.
Along comes a remarkable man, and he is despised.
Dig deeper.
I forgot that. 
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solicitr
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I wouldn't say that intellectual is a dirty word. I would say however that we traditionally have valued empiricism over rationalism, pragmatism over theorizing, idealism leavened by practicality. We're Romans, not Greeks.
Science, and therefore technology, have been the great triumph of modern history because they represent the fusion of the rational and the empirical- and, moreover, the empirical takes priority. If the theory and the data collide, it's the theory which must adjust, because the data certainly won't.
Unadulterated intellectuals have an unfortunate tendency towards pure a priori thinking. This taken to extremes produces Reigns of Terror and Cultural Revolutions: if the people won't behave according to the Theory, well, we'll make them. Force the human data to fit the curve. This of course not only doesn't work, but the idea of making people behave in a more satisfactory fashion (to the Planners) is a denial of human liberty: the one quantity which it's a free society's obligation to increase. Tolkien's denunciation of socialism- of bosses and planners and above all of Control- was wise indeed.
In more limited circumstances we get fiascos like the subprime meltdown, a well-intentioned idea in the name of economic justice, with naive (or wilful) disregard for economic reality. And unfortunately the Law of Unintended Consequences can be one vengeful mutha. Even here, today, on the auto/train thread we see folks, with all the best will in the world, blithely talking about 'changing people's behavior.' Because We know how they ought to behave, of course.
I prefer the inherent "show me" skepticism - empiricism - of the SOTE to the faddish gullibility of too many 'intellectuals.' And gullibility it is indeed- how else explain the otherwise inexplicable survival of Marxism, concentrated in those clusters of intellectuality known as 'campuses?'
Americans favor smart men and women- but they favor smart doers: Thomas Edison, Bill Gates. We are not a nation of Marcuse readers (which I don't mind in the least).
Here's an illustrative example: Gibson Guitars. Those of a certain age will recall that the Sixties into the Seventies were the great age of conglomeration. Diversify! was the gospel of the business schools- which in practice meant acquiring other companies, whatever their business. And why worry about that? Product is Product. With the right accountants and management practices and ad agency, it doesn't matter if it's salsa or oven mitts. Business is a numbers game (they said): Harvard MBAs knew the Theory, to which the business of making or selling (interchangeable) Product would conform.
Except, when Gibson in 1969 was bought up by parvenu conglomerate Ecuadoran Breweries Ltd., the new Ivy League management team had a certain weakness: they knew squat about guitars. Instead they responded to flagging sales by- what else? cost-cutting. The theory said Make the Product Cheaper. So they did, and so Gibson spiraled into the grave- or less than three weeks away from it, when it was miraculously recued by a couple of venture capitalists who were- yes, guitar guys. Not that they knew much about making them, but at least they liked to play them and knew what made a good instrument good. More important, they returned production to guys who really did know how to make them. SOTE. The Harvard MBAs for all their brains and nice suits had made a hash of things- as have the Masters of the Universe on Wall Street, as has our current MBA-in-Chief.
So now we have elected a "remarkable man." Remarkable how? What has he done (not said)? "Mostly they remembered only that it was a delight to hear the voice speaking, all that it said seemed wise and reasonable, and desire awoke in them by swift agreement to seem wise themselves." And the old warrior's dissent sounded "harsh as an old raven's after the music of the voice."
Remember, our last professor turned President was Woodrow Wilson- a putative Progressive who turned out to be a crypto-fascist.
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No, River, I'm not a populist, not even a popularis- but I am an anti-elitist. And, yes, I dislike that strain in the GOP as well, and was frankly disgusted at some of our Eastern Establisment sorts revealing their Inner Snob.
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BTW, the notion I tossed out linking the franchise to taxation was intended as food for thought, a Gedankenexperiment- no more serious than Swift's 'Modest Proposal.' I was trying to illustrate the difficulty, if not impossibility, of a republic evading Woodhouselee's Law.
Science, and therefore technology, have been the great triumph of modern history because they represent the fusion of the rational and the empirical- and, moreover, the empirical takes priority. If the theory and the data collide, it's the theory which must adjust, because the data certainly won't.
Unadulterated intellectuals have an unfortunate tendency towards pure a priori thinking. This taken to extremes produces Reigns of Terror and Cultural Revolutions: if the people won't behave according to the Theory, well, we'll make them. Force the human data to fit the curve. This of course not only doesn't work, but the idea of making people behave in a more satisfactory fashion (to the Planners) is a denial of human liberty: the one quantity which it's a free society's obligation to increase. Tolkien's denunciation of socialism- of bosses and planners and above all of Control- was wise indeed.
In more limited circumstances we get fiascos like the subprime meltdown, a well-intentioned idea in the name of economic justice, with naive (or wilful) disregard for economic reality. And unfortunately the Law of Unintended Consequences can be one vengeful mutha. Even here, today, on the auto/train thread we see folks, with all the best will in the world, blithely talking about 'changing people's behavior.' Because We know how they ought to behave, of course.
I prefer the inherent "show me" skepticism - empiricism - of the SOTE to the faddish gullibility of too many 'intellectuals.' And gullibility it is indeed- how else explain the otherwise inexplicable survival of Marxism, concentrated in those clusters of intellectuality known as 'campuses?'
Americans favor smart men and women- but they favor smart doers: Thomas Edison, Bill Gates. We are not a nation of Marcuse readers (which I don't mind in the least).
Here's an illustrative example: Gibson Guitars. Those of a certain age will recall that the Sixties into the Seventies were the great age of conglomeration. Diversify! was the gospel of the business schools- which in practice meant acquiring other companies, whatever their business. And why worry about that? Product is Product. With the right accountants and management practices and ad agency, it doesn't matter if it's salsa or oven mitts. Business is a numbers game (they said): Harvard MBAs knew the Theory, to which the business of making or selling (interchangeable) Product would conform.
Except, when Gibson in 1969 was bought up by parvenu conglomerate Ecuadoran Breweries Ltd., the new Ivy League management team had a certain weakness: they knew squat about guitars. Instead they responded to flagging sales by- what else? cost-cutting. The theory said Make the Product Cheaper. So they did, and so Gibson spiraled into the grave- or less than three weeks away from it, when it was miraculously recued by a couple of venture capitalists who were- yes, guitar guys. Not that they knew much about making them, but at least they liked to play them and knew what made a good instrument good. More important, they returned production to guys who really did know how to make them. SOTE. The Harvard MBAs for all their brains and nice suits had made a hash of things- as have the Masters of the Universe on Wall Street, as has our current MBA-in-Chief.
So now we have elected a "remarkable man." Remarkable how? What has he done (not said)? "Mostly they remembered only that it was a delight to hear the voice speaking, all that it said seemed wise and reasonable, and desire awoke in them by swift agreement to seem wise themselves." And the old warrior's dissent sounded "harsh as an old raven's after the music of the voice."
Remember, our last professor turned President was Woodrow Wilson- a putative Progressive who turned out to be a crypto-fascist.
------------------
No, River, I'm not a populist, not even a popularis- but I am an anti-elitist. And, yes, I dislike that strain in the GOP as well, and was frankly disgusted at some of our Eastern Establisment sorts revealing their Inner Snob.
-----------------------
BTW, the notion I tossed out linking the franchise to taxation was intended as food for thought, a Gedankenexperiment- no more serious than Swift's 'Modest Proposal.' I was trying to illustrate the difficulty, if not impossibility, of a republic evading Woodhouselee's Law.
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sauronsfinger
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Regarding this entire "intellectual thinkers" versus "action" discussion. The American People have shown a tremendous wisdom in opting for the latter. In this country, its an attitude of "if it works, then do it" and that type of pragmatism and utilitarian outlook has allowd us to do many of the bold things that have helped made this country great. We do when others talk.
That is a good thing.
The older I get, (and that seems a fastly accelerating process), the more I am disdainful of philosophy , idealogy and political 'isms' of any stripe or bent.
Someone could argue all day and night about the benefits of some pet idealogy but for me its reality and how things work out that really matters. Lets remember that even the fascists gave us the modern freeway system. So you can have a completely disgusting idealogy but still stumble upon a good idea. The highest sounding principles can produce negativity when put into practice. I happen to thing that pacifism is a tremendous belief, but if somebody breaks into my house I leave that book on Ghandi in the library and its Smith and Wesson I embrace.
If it works, use it.
from solicitr
There is then the unspoken assumption hanging out there that Obama could well follow in the footsteps of crypto-fascism.
The fact that Obama was a professor teaching law and Wilson came from academia means absolutely nothing beyond they shared a common occupation for part of their lives. If Wilson had turned out to be the worst leader in the history of the world it means nothing that Obama held a job within that same profession.
What is a "crypto-fascist" and how does Wilson qualify for this designation? Are you citing all phases of his administration or just a particular action that you object to - perhaps the Palmer raids?
That is a good thing.
The older I get, (and that seems a fastly accelerating process), the more I am disdainful of philosophy , idealogy and political 'isms' of any stripe or bent.
Someone could argue all day and night about the benefits of some pet idealogy but for me its reality and how things work out that really matters. Lets remember that even the fascists gave us the modern freeway system. So you can have a completely disgusting idealogy but still stumble upon a good idea. The highest sounding principles can produce negativity when put into practice. I happen to thing that pacifism is a tremendous belief, but if somebody breaks into my house I leave that book on Ghandi in the library and its Smith and Wesson I embrace.
If it works, use it.
from solicitr
you seem to link Barack Obama and Woodrow Wilson together and you point out that the last professiorial type we had was Wilson and he turned out to be a "crypto-fascist" in your opinion.So now we have elected a "remarkable man." Remarkable how? What has he done (not said)? "Mostly they remembered only that it was a delight to hear the voice speaking, all that it said seemed wise and reasonable, and desire awoke in them by swift agreement to seem wise themselves." And the old warrior's dissent sounded "harsh as an old raven's after the music of the voice."
Remember, our last professor turned President was Woodrow Wilson- a putative Progressive who turned out to be a crypto-fascist.
There is then the unspoken assumption hanging out there that Obama could well follow in the footsteps of crypto-fascism.
The fact that Obama was a professor teaching law and Wilson came from academia means absolutely nothing beyond they shared a common occupation for part of their lives. If Wilson had turned out to be the worst leader in the history of the world it means nothing that Obama held a job within that same profession.
What is a "crypto-fascist" and how does Wilson qualify for this designation? Are you citing all phases of his administration or just a particular action that you object to - perhaps the Palmer raids?
There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers
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solicitr
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crypto- or proto-fascist just refers to one of an authoritarian stripe, not necessarily one-man dictatorship but certainly oppressive State power, especially the suppression of dissent, and of minorities (ethnic or political).
Wilson gave us, besides the Palmer raids
The Sedition Act
The Espionage Act
The Committee on Public Information
The American Protective League
Wilson also advanced the study of eugenics and pushed state compulsory-sterilization laws, segregated all Federal facilities and discharged nearly all non-menial black government employees, openly praised the KKK (and Birth of a Nation), and never concealed his scorn for immigrants (especially Jews) as opposed to "pure-blooded" English Americans.
And, of course, Wilson gave us the IRS (which until the 1970's considered itself not to be bound by the Fourth or Fifth Amendments).
As an academic, Wilson's two major published works (Congressional Government and The Study of Administration) attacked the US Constitution as oudatd and cumbersome: its checks and balances simply got in the way of "robust" governance, and advocated a "scientifically" regulated and bureaucratized state, of which he held up Bismarck's Germany as a model.
As to the President-elect: nobody knows what he is going to turn out to be. That's part of the problem, isn't it? We know almost nothing about the man. The one quality held up as a qualification is his "intellectuality." I find that worrisome.
Wilson gave us, besides the Palmer raids
The Sedition Act
The Espionage Act
The Committee on Public Information
The American Protective League
Wilson also advanced the study of eugenics and pushed state compulsory-sterilization laws, segregated all Federal facilities and discharged nearly all non-menial black government employees, openly praised the KKK (and Birth of a Nation), and never concealed his scorn for immigrants (especially Jews) as opposed to "pure-blooded" English Americans.
And, of course, Wilson gave us the IRS (which until the 1970's considered itself not to be bound by the Fourth or Fifth Amendments).
As an academic, Wilson's two major published works (Congressional Government and The Study of Administration) attacked the US Constitution as oudatd and cumbersome: its checks and balances simply got in the way of "robust" governance, and advocated a "scientifically" regulated and bureaucratized state, of which he held up Bismarck's Germany as a model.
As to the President-elect: nobody knows what he is going to turn out to be. That's part of the problem, isn't it? We know almost nothing about the man. The one quality held up as a qualification is his "intellectuality." I find that worrisome.
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sauronsfinger
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Solicitr
a wartime president is always going to be criticized for taking steps - some of which were considered temporary - to win the war.
Regarding our President elect, I feel for you that you do not know Barack Obama as well as you would want to. Evidently that was not the feeling of the majority of the voters. It looks like they - nearly 68 million of them, were comfortable with the man.
a wartime president is always going to be criticized for taking steps - some of which were considered temporary - to win the war.
Regarding our President elect, I feel for you that you do not know Barack Obama as well as you would want to. Evidently that was not the feeling of the majority of the voters. It looks like they - nearly 68 million of them, were comfortable with the man.
Last edited by sauronsfinger on Fri Nov 21, 2008 5:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers
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sauronsfinger
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River - I agree totally. The economic collapse in late September provided a tremendous opportunity for both candidates to show how they would handle a serious crisis.
The public compared the reactions and activities of both men and judged them accordingly. It is worth noting that before those late September economic calamaties hit, McCain was even or even slightly ahead in many mainstream polls. The he suspended his campaign, threatened to cancel the first debate, cancelled Letterman but still went on other TV shows, was shown being a rather disinterested party at the White House special meeting, gave encouragement to House Republicans to vote NO on the bill, and generally did not portray a positive picture of leadership in time of a crisis.
Obama was his usual cool and collective self. And I think that helped the public gain in their comfort level with him.
The public compared the reactions and activities of both men and judged them accordingly. It is worth noting that before those late September economic calamaties hit, McCain was even or even slightly ahead in many mainstream polls. The he suspended his campaign, threatened to cancel the first debate, cancelled Letterman but still went on other TV shows, was shown being a rather disinterested party at the White House special meeting, gave encouragement to House Republicans to vote NO on the bill, and generally did not portray a positive picture of leadership in time of a crisis.
Obama was his usual cool and collective self. And I think that helped the public gain in their comfort level with him.
There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers
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Voronwë the Faithful
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Funny, I think this sums up Bush. And it quite well sums up Palin, too, if you take a look at her record in Alaska, and how she governs (I'll omit proof, but Troopergate, her record of firing people that are not her allies, etc.)crypto- or proto-fascist just refers to one of an authoritarian stripe, not necessarily one-man dictatorship but certainly oppressive State power, especially the suppression of dissent, and of minorities (ethnic or political).
I find it weird that you decide to link Obama with Wilson with zero rationale, other than "we don't know the guy." (and both were professors). The assistant or associate (can't remember which it was) professorship appears to be something he did to help pay the bills, not out of any desire to be an academician.
Obama does have a track record in State government, has written a book on his philosophy of governance, directly states that Lincoln is his inspiration and governing mentor, and has established a record as president-elect of picking moderates and hard nosed realists for his Cabinet, and failing to give in to partisanship (allowing Lieberman to keep his chairmanship).
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solicitr
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As time goes by, we'll see if they remain comfortable.Evidently that was not the feeling of the majority of the voters. It looks like they - nearly 68 million of them, were comfortable with the man.
I'm not talking about executives dispensing with subordinates who aren't on the same page. That's their right and privilege. I'm talking about using the heavy hand of the law to punish dissenters, or the unruly mob to shout them down. And this candidate Obama did several times. If by "hard-nosed realist" you mean Axelrod, that's rather a nice description for what I would call a "brass-knuckle alley fighter."Funny, I think this sums up Bush. And it quite well sums up Palin, too, if you take a look at her record in Alaska, and how she governs (I'll omit proof, but Troopergate, her record of firing people that are not her allies, etc.)
(BTW, the President has no say in Senate chairmanships).
Ellie, tell me (hypothetically speaking): what would your reaction be if Obama turned out not in fact to be a moderate or a bipartisan?
Last edited by solicitr on Fri Nov 21, 2008 7:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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sauronsfinger
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I never said the Palmer raids were part of WWI. I was referring to other things on your list that were associated with the war. Lincoln took some pretty strong action as President also because of special wartime circumstances. That does not make him a "crypto-fascist" to use your term.
There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers
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solicitr
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Voronwë, I was engaging in a little hyperbole- but then I was countering the hyperbole of those who hold up the myth of Obama's being some sort of Booker T. Washington story. He grew up in a very affluent suburb, attended Hawaii's most exclusive prep school, and then on to Occidental and the Ivy League (the last stop whereof, Harvard, being paid for through the good offices of Khalid al-Mansoor).
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sauronsfinger
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from Solicitr
Sedition Act - repealed 12/13/20 Wilson still President - obviously temporary as I suggested
Espionage Act - many parts repealed in 1921 - no specific date given - but still obviously were "temporary" as I described
Committee on Public Information - abolished in 1919 - Wilson still President - obviously also temporary as i stated
American Protective League - disbanded after the War ended partly from opposition by President Wilsons Attorney General Palmer - temporary as I described
Using only the links you provided with your list, here is what they tell usSF, none of Wilson's "wartime" measures were repealed by him after the war ended.
Sedition Act - repealed 12/13/20 Wilson still President - obviously temporary as I suggested
Espionage Act - many parts repealed in 1921 - no specific date given - but still obviously were "temporary" as I described
Committee on Public Information - abolished in 1919 - Wilson still President - obviously also temporary as i stated
American Protective League - disbanded after the War ended partly from opposition by President Wilsons Attorney General Palmer - temporary as I described
a wartime president is always going to be criticized for taking steps - some of which were considered temporary - to win the war.
There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers
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Voronwë the Faithful
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What is your source for this statement? (I remind you that one of our rules for these discussions is "5. Avoid making assertions of fact without backing them up with links to a credible source. If your source is a left-wing or right-wing ideological site, or otherwise coming from a particular point of view, don't try to obfuscate that fact.")solicitr wrote:the last stop whereof, Harvard, being paid for through the good offices of Khalid al-Mansoor).
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."