Am I wrong to be disturbed about this?

[axordil]

There is no person or institution alive now--or ever--that could be trusted with that much information, sorry.

[JewelSong]

I bet the parents of Madeleine McCann wish there had been an embedded electronic chip in their daughter.

And the parents of Molly Bish.

And Amber Hagerman's parents.

And the parents of countless other abducted and missing children.

And what is "that much information?" Your name and date/place of birth? A unique ID number?

The information is ALL already available to "them" - count on it. I am thinking of the convenience of being able to identify remains, kidnapped children - even years later, locate people who have gone missing.

The "personal" information? It's already out there. Trust has nothing to do with it.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Jewel, you are not alone. I agree with you. At least for the most part.

[axordil]

I was waiting for the missing children angle. That's the one that always gets dragged out in these discussions. Think of the children! Think of the children!

I am thinking of the children. I want mind to grow up without an ID/ tracking device implanted in his flesh, thank you very much. The minuscule risk of him being abducted by a stranger is not worth the cost in terms of freedom to live and act without being monitored. And don't kid yourself, those would be RFID chips, and they would get used to track people.

[JewelSong]

You don't need to get all sarcastic about it.

We just disagree, that's all.

I think a universal ID system is a good idea. I think being able to keep track of people would be a good idea. I think having all your info in one central place is a good idea. I think it would be a great thing to not have to carry anything with you when traveling.

You don't.

But even though we don't agree, I think that we are moving towards a global tracking and ID system as the world shrinks virtually and people become more mobile than ever before.


(And if it had been available - and safe - I would have had microchips in my kids in a second. I think it is where we are headed in the future and I think it makes a lot of sense.)

[Holbytla]

I have no doubt we are heading in that direction, and I do think there will be good things that come from this.
I also fully believe bad things will come from this and I am all against compromising my beliefs.
Too many people on this planet want to control other people's lives because they allegedly know better.
Power should be distributed among the masses, not condensed in the hands of a few.
How is it the right of anyone on this planet to know where I am and what I am doing?

[Faramond]

Where once there were heated debates about the practice of baptizing infants who couldn't choose it, now there will be debates about implanting infants who can't choose it.

[Primula Baggins]

Jewel, it's the centralization of information that is the problem, including the centralized government access.

Yes, there is a lot of information "out there" on anyone who's built any kind of paper trail in life, but it is not all parked in one spot to be perused and analyzed by anyone who chooses. Yes, people do leave trails when they use credit cards, make ATM withdrawals, etc.; but they can choose not to spend money that way if they prefer.

Whereas an RFID-equipped card can be scanned while it's in your pocket or your purse, by a remote reader you simply walk past and that can even be concealed. The capability to literally track people without their knowledge and against their will is built into this system.

[JewelSong]

Jewel, it's the centralization of information that is the problem, including the centralized government access.

I think that's the beauty of it, actually. For me, having all the info in one place would be a good thing for a lot of reasons.

The capability to literally track people without their knowledge and against their will is built into this system.

I guess. But it IS coming. In another 100 years or so, I bet. Maybe less. Better to be ready for it and build the system to everyone's best advantage, than to rail against it until there is no choice and others have made the decisions about how to set it up and what it entails.

[narya]

What horrifies me is the thought of standing in line at the DMV with 245 million other people.

This won't stop the kind of identity theft I was the victim of last year - someone just started printing checks with person A's name, person B's address, person C's drivers license number and MY bank account number. Of course, the check user was person D, nowhere identified on the check.

[nerdanel]

Where once there were heated debates about the practice of baptizing infants who couldn't choose it, now there will be debates about implanting infants who can't choose it.

...and at least we grownup infants who couldn't choose and didn't want baptism are free to believe that said baptism had no practical or metaphysical significance. The adult who feels (and is) practically violated by the implantation of a government tracking chip as an infant, won't be so free to shrug off the ramifications of her parents, or the government's, actions.

[truehobbit]

I'm thrilled to find myself agreeing with Jewel here (we differ on so many other points), at least on the ID-card.
I'm not commenting on implanting a chip, as that's a bit futuristic and I've never thought of it before.

Sometimes you get a situation in US movies where someone is asked for an ID and they produce a driving licence, and I just ask myself 'what if I don't have a driving licence because I don't want one?' - and at times they go on about what sort of ID is acceptable and whether it needs to have a photo or not and things like that.
What a lot of needless headache about a simple thing.
I've been carrying an ID-card with me at all times since I've been 16 and it makes me feel at ease.

It's true I don't much like it when I travel to England and a customs officer puts my card under some kind of reading device, because it makes me wonder what sort of info he is reading or storing about me, but it's no big deal.

I admit that I don't know anything about how fake-safe these things are - they are usually claimed to be proof against fake, though, which is why it's enough of an ID for travelling into the US, for example.

The fact that we've been using personal ID cards so self-evidently also makes me smile when I hear US-citizens talking about getting a passport to leave the country, and all the hassle it involves.
Not only can I enter other countries with the document I carry on me anyway at all times, but I've also grown up with the notion that any country I can't get into with my ID is a country that's not safe to travel into to begin with, because only hostile or instable countries ask for a passport.

On the whole it's a hassle-free way to make sure the state knows who its inhabitants are, which it certainly has a right to know, IMO.

[Holbytla]

I think the country's motto has to change.

"Land of the almost free...."

[Faramond]

Not only can I enter other countries with the document I carry on me anyway at all times, but I've also grown up with the notion that any country I can't get into with my ID is a country that's not safe to travel into to begin with, because only hostile or instable countries ask for a passport.

I think every country in the world will ask for a passport from some subset of aliens entering the country! If I wanted to enter Germany, I would be required to show my US passport, certainly. I believe the same is true of visitors from the UK.

Is Germany hostile or unstable?

[vison]

Not only can I enter other countries with the document I carry on me anyway at all times, but I've also grown up with the notion that any country I can't get into with my ID is a country that's not safe to travel into to begin with, because only hostile or instable countries ask for a passport.

I think every country in the world will ask for a passport from some subset of aliens entering the country! If I wanted to enter Germany, I would be required to show my US passport, certainly. I believe the same is true of visitors from the UK.

Is Germany hostile or unstable?

Well, it used to be, if I recall correctly.

Canadians now require a passport to enter the USA by air. I have no issue with this. But by george I'd have an issue with the government of Canada requiring "papers" for me to travel within my own country!!!! Yes, I need to present ID when I board a domestic flight. But at this time, and for certainly the foreseeable future, a driver's license or voluntarily obtained "official" identity card is sufficient. Should I travel by bus or train, all I need is a ticket --- in Canada.


There are certainly many valid reasons for a person to carry identification. Unless the law has changed in Canada, no police officer (for instance) can demand I present identification. A driver's license, if I am driving and am stopped for an infraction of the law, yes, indeed. But if I'm boogeying on foot or bicycle or in-line skates or scooter along Clearbrook road and am accosted by a member of the local constabulary, he/she cannot require me to produce identification nor explain my business upon that thoroughfare. And by bloody hell, that's the way it ought to be.

[Faramond]

I should say that I think there is no way that a US passport is going to be required to fly domestically in the US in the near future. Let's think for a minute how much money the US airlines would lose if something like this happened. How much lobbying muscle would they line up against this sort of thing?

************************************************

Now, when the chip is implanted into the infant, will a DNA sample be extracted at the same time and fed into the central database?

[narya]

It would be easier if we just went to retinal scans.

[Frelga]

Jewel, it's the centralization of information that is the problem, including the centralized government access.

I think that's the beauty of it, actually. For me, having all the info in one place would be a good thing for a lot of reasons.

In theory, maybe. I've had some experience trying to link information from just two State-maintained sources, and let me tell you, it is not straightforward. Even the most perfect, ideal link will give you at least a 2% error. Out 300 million people, it's what? 6,000,000 people who could be mistaken for somebody else, arrested, denied credit, denied rights to board the plane or travel aboard.... The real error would certainly be much higher.

A database of 300 million people that can be used on anything from criminal records to library records? Managed by government employees?

Now, when the chip is implanted into the infant, will a DNA sample be extracted at the same time and fed into the central database?

Yes.

This is so weird, folks. Even in the Soviet Union we didn't have to CARRY identification papers at all times. Not since Stalin's times, probably.

[narya]

But as a visitor to the Soviet Union in 1980, I certainly had to have my bumagi in hand when traveling, and in the care of the hotelier when staying overnight.

[axordil]

I only use sarcasm because it's so hard to express physical revulsion online.

I think it's best if I stop talking to people about this topic.