Jews for Jesus

[truehobbit]

Seven pages in two days!
I had never heard of "Jews for Jesus" - very interesting!

I'm sorry, this has probably long been said - I only read the first page and then realised it was no use to try to read everything.
What struck me right on the first page was the creed that Voronwë posted and this quote:

A lot of Christians automatically ask me, ‘When did you become a Christian?’ But I’m not a Christian. I’m a Jew and will always remain a Jew. I’ve become a Jewish follower of a Jewish Messiah. I’m a fulfilled Jew, a completed Jew. My Judaism has become far more complete. Love has been added. Jesus added love to Judaism. I am sure if you had asked Paul he would have said the same. Jesus helped fulfil his Judaism. He made it more complete. I don’t think Jesus talked about setting up a new religion.

I think the man is justified in his views. He knows he's not a regular Jew, and even though accepting Christ as the Messiah makes him a Christian in the theoretical sense of the word, I would say that there is a whole lot of historical baggage that comes with being a Christian!
For one, I'd say being Christian usually goes with belonging to some church - where would this guy go to assemble with others of like beliefs? Any church he could join would bring him a lot of ideas he probably wouldn't want to buy with the package.
The only other alternative is founding your own community and that's what he seems to have done.
Early followers of Christ saw themselves as just what this guy describes: Jews all around, who had accepted Jesus as their Messiah and decided to follow his teachings.
The early "Christians" did indeed not set out to become a new church and to seperate from the Jews. They kept the Jewish laws and had a hard time turning away from some restrictions their Jewishness laid on them, namely to bring themselves to communicate with non-Jews to share the news of the Messiah.

In respect of all this, I think it's quite possible to consider yourself a follower of Jesus and a Jew at the same time.

[Impenitent]

Becoming a Christian does not make one a fulfilled and completed Jew. It makes one a Christian.

I find that statement complete claptrap, offensive and insulting. It is supercessionist and I reject it with every fibre of my being.

[nerdanel]

Becoming a Christian does not make one a fulfilled and completed Jew. It makes one a Christian.

I find that statement complete claptrap, offensive and insulting. It is supercessionist and I reject it with every fibre of my being.

Seconded.

The corollary to the idea that Christians have "moved forward" to become fulfilled and completed Jews, is the idea that one who walks away from Christianity either to live as a Noachide or convert to Judaism is "going backwards," something I have been told, by this point, dozens of times. I find that view, expressed to someone seeking to move forward in their personal spiritual path, to be reprehensibly pejorative.

EDIT to acknowledge the responses to my earlier post. Will have more to say later...if the discussion hasn't moved forward five more pages by tomorrow.

[halplm]

Becoming a Christian does not make one a fulfilled and completed Jew. It makes one a Christian.

I find that statement complete claptrap, offensive and insulting. It is supercessionist and I reject it with every fibre of my being.

You feel this way because you think Jesus was not the Messiah.

Let me ask you this. If you believed SOMEONE was the Messiah, and lot of other people agreed, and this caused a division among Jews, and half stayed with traditional Judaism, and the other half believed this was the Messiah along with you... would you consider yourself no longer a jew?

I think the reason I respond negatively to your view is that you consider it all offensive and insulting. How does Christians believing they are the continuation of Jewish belief about the Messiah fulfilled in Jesus have any affect on you? How is it insulting you? This is what I don't understand.

ETA: TP, how is that any more pejorative than someone simply saying they thought it was wrong to be leaving Christianity at all?

[vison]

Well, it's a tough question all around. And a good thread, full of sincere thoughts well expressed.

I find myself agreeing very strongly with Impenitent and tolkienpurist. Just why I do, I'm not sure. As an agnostic it shouldn't matter to me, but it does, just the same.

[Impenitent]

You can believe whatever you wish with respect to the connection between Christianity and Judaism. Acknowledging that one came from the other is only factual.

But the statement quoted implies (I'm not inferring, IT is implying) that in order to be a fulfilled and completed Jew one must accept that Jesus is the messiah.

Otherwise one is what? An unfulfilled Jew? An incomplete Jew? an unloving Jew? That Judaism without Jesus is incomplete? This IS insulting! How can you say it is otherwise?

You feel this way because you think Jesus was not the Messiah.

How about this: No, I know he is not; but you THINK Jesus is the Messiah.

See, it's all a matter of perspective, isn't it. Questioning some of the articles of Christianity is hurtful, but stating that Judaism without Jesus is invalid and incomplete is not hurtful? Excuse me?

[halplm]

I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm trying to understand.

[Cerin]

But the statement quoted implies (I'm not inferring, IT is implying) that in order to be a fulfilled and completed Jew one must accept that Jesus is the messiah.

Otherwise one is what? An unfulfilled Jew? An incomplete Jew? an unloving Jew? That Judaism without Jesus is incomplete? This IS insulting! How can you say it is otherwise?

This is the same concept, as when Jn was saying (and again I hope I'm not misrepresenting) that just by being a Christian one is disparaging Jews. And I disagree. This cannot be. I reject it utterly. My faith is about what I believe and what it means to me, it is not about what other people think it says I think about them.

Why must you feel, Imp, that by this man stating his beliefs and experience that he is saying something disparaging about you? I think that is wrong.

I think you could say that the logical implications you see in his statement are insulting to you, but to say that this man is insulting you personally just by stating his own beliefs about his own Jewishness, that can't be right. I think the offense you feel is your responsibility, not his.

[Impenitent]

Being a Christian does not disparage Judaism; being a Christian means one believes in Jesus and is not a Jew.

You are quite right that he is merely stating his beliefs about his own Jewishness - and that, in itself, is not a personal insult to me.

But...

When Truehobbit (or Hal, or anyone else) extrapolates from this expression of personal belief that, of course, he must be right, because belief in Jesus brings love to Judaism (Judaism is lacking in love?) and makes one a better Jew (really?) and fulfills my Judaism (Judaism is not complete?)...would you not say that is a dismissive attitude?

When Hal says I only think Jesus is not the Messiah, what is he telling me?

(Hal, I'm not engaging you here, I'm only trying to turn the viewpoint around to see whether you can perceive it from my paradigm).

You are looking at it from within a Christian paradigm and cannot see beyond it to how dismissive and supercessionist those statements are. They are invalidating statements.

I don't agree with them and they do not sway me but they can still hurt me coming from people with whom I am on friendly terms.

How can you not see that when you can feel the slights of those who felt their Christian views dismissed?

ETA: I think I will not be participating in this thread any further either; I find it too hurtful to engage in this conversation. Don't think I'm going off in a huff - I just need to withdraw, I'm not in a huff.

[halplm]

I don't get offended when people say they believe differently.

I do get offended when people tell me I'm stupid for believing as I do.

No one here is calling anyone stupid for believing as they do. People have different beliefs. We all think beliefs opposed to our own are wrong, otherwise why would we believe our own?

Nothing I've said in this thread is extrapolated from that quote. I dont' pretend to understand what comments he's making about Judaism. I've just tried to explain why I think I understand what he's saying about still being a Jew, while believing Jesus was the messiah...

[Cerin]

When Truehobbit (or Hal, or anyone else) extrapolates from this expression of personal belief that, of course, he must be right, because belief in Jesus brings love to Judaism (Judaism is lacking in love?) and makes one a better Jew (really?) and fulfills my Judaism (Judaism is not complete?)...would you not say that is a dismissive attitude?

Thank you for replying, Imp.

I think it is ok if someone says that from their perspective that man's comments seem reasonable or right to them. But I don't think anyone should say, and certainly not to you who have already expressed your distaste, that of course he must be right. And they should certainly not say anything that suggests this man's beliefs imply anything about your Judaism, especially when you have already expressed your distaste. (I offer this as the opinion of a member, not as a Marshal.)

When Hal says I only think Jesus is not the Messiah, what is he telling me?

Well, naturally he's telling you he thinks you are wrong, just as you think he is wrong.

You are looking at it from within a Christian paradigm and cannot see beyond it to how dismissive and supercessionist those statements are. They are invalidating statements.

Well again, someone participating in this discussion and politely stating their positive view of the relationship between Christianity and Judaism can't be seen to be dismissing you personally or intending to invalidate your faith. But since you've stated your reaction to this concept, I think we should all be careful not to personalize any of these statements in relation to you.

How can you not see that when you can feel the slights of those who felt their Christian views dismissed?

It all depended on how it was put. If someone posted their reactions in terms of their feelings, making sure to say it was their perceptions, then it wasn't hurtful. What was hurtful were vehement declarations about the cruelty of my God stated as fact (as opposed to more restrained statements that were careful to say my beliefs seemed cruel to them).

[Jnyusa]

No, these arguments are not symmetric.

If you say that you accept certain things about Jesus and consider yourself a Christian, then you are stating your own beliefs and that's fine with me. I accept your faith as being true for you.

But when you say that Jesus is not only the messiah that you believe in but also the Jewish messiah, then you are not stating your own beliefs alone, you are also stating something about Judaism - this this man is its messiah - when all of Judaism says that he is not and that the concept of messiah as you understand it does not even apply to Judaism.

I can tell you that I, personally, don't believe in your messiah without invalidating your right to believe in him. But if you tell me that I am mistaken about who my messiah is, you are most definitely invalidating my belief.

This lovely man claims that he is not a Christian, he is a Jew. But he believes everything that Christians believe and nothing that Jews believe. Either we are Jews or he is. It can't be both. And if you insist that he is the one who is a Jew then you are also insisting that I am not and Imp is not and Frelga and Voronwë are not and so forth. That is most definitely an invalidation of our beliefs.

Jn

[tinwë]

I’d like to add my voice to those who have been mightily impressed by the level of discourse in this and the other recent religious threads. It has been a fascinating read, though difficult to keep up with because of its fast pace!

As to the question at hand, I think I tend to agree with those who say that it is not accurate to call people who accept the tenants of Christianity Jews, based on the history of the development of the religion as well as what is in the Bible. While it is true that Christianity is based on, and evolved from, Judaism, it is also true that it rapidly shifted its focus from the Jewish people to the Gentiles. In Acts, which is essentially the sequel to the Gospel of Luke and tells of the beginnings of the Church, there is a debate between Paul and the leaders of the church in Jerusalem as to whether or not one must become a Jew in order to be a Christian, specifically centering around the need for circumcision. It was decided that it was not necessary, only an abbreviated version of the Noahide Laws - “pollution of idols, fornication, things strangled, and blood". The fact that the Church, from that point on, flourished in Gentile cultures while largely fading out in the Nazarene, or Jewish, sects, leads me to believe that Christians, for the most part, are not Jews.

That doesn’t mean that there are not, and have not always been, people who believe themselves to be Jewish Christians. And generally speaking, I’m ok letting people call themselves whatever they want. Here’s some interesting reading: Jewish Christians
Note that this is listed as part of the series on Christianity.

A few random thoughts:

Hal and TP - On the matter of Lewis’s three choices (and TP’s five), I would add another possibility, what I call the “I just don’t know” option. It’s not that I don’t believe what the Bible says, or that the words attributed to Christ are actually his or not. But for me, my faith in that aspect of Christian doctrine is defined primarily by a lack of disbelief. I can’t say that I don’t believe it any more than I can say that I believe it. The only truthful answer I can give is that I don’t know. Beyond that I can only say that I find much of the teachings of Christ to be unarguably true, probably those same things that Impy and Vison and other non-Christians (as well as all Christians) find true, so I cannot consider him to be liar or a madman even if those particular things that I don’t know are true are in fact not true. Does that make any sense? I do, by the way, consider myself to be (loosely) a Christian, though I’ve been told that my attitude is a cop-out for a Christian, and that may be true. I’m not too concerned about it really, but like I said earlier, I tend to let people call themselves what they want, and I like it when others afford me the same.

Hal - as to your arguments for the validity of the Gospel, I tend to agree very strongly that the most compelling argument is the illogical nature of the story. Why would anybody have made up such a story, knowing, as they must have, the scorn and ridicule and suffering such a belief would bring on them? There has been much speculation that the Bible was engineered by the Church as a way to control people, but the original texts were written long before the established Church had become a political force. The only logical conclusion is that the people who wrote it really believed it was true.

As for the scarcity of texts from that time, I wish Kushana was here to address this one, but I think that the Nag Hammadi codices show that there were many more texts written contemporaneously to the other New Testament books.

Anthy - I understand about the cultural aspects of traditional churches. But those things do tend to change over time. I was raised as you were, to believe that “proper” Sunday dress was a sign of respect for the religion, but my dad now wears Birkenstocks to church. And he’s the preacher!

[halplm]

I think the root of this misunderstanding is this idea that saying Jesus is the Jewish messiah is somehow invaliditating the belief that he is not the jewish messiah, and thus we are being insulting...

I'm not sure I'm understanding this, because I don't know how the Messiah can be defined except from anciant Judaism.

I understand you guys think the Messiah is different than what Jesus said he was when he said he was the Messiah.

I don't understand how this belief of mine and others is somehow offensive to you guys.

[Jnyusa]

[sigh] I fear the real problem is that some Christians have come to believe that they are the main branch of Judaism stretching back to Abraham. That is what is meant by Christianity 'fulfilling' Judaism.

And those of us who continue to adhere to Mosaic Law are the wayward offshoot that broke away at the time of Jesus. The continued existence of Judaism could never be validated by a Christian holding this belief.

Jn

[halplm]

but why would you need a christian validation of your beliefs?

IF Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, wouldn't that mean that Christainity IS the main branch of Judaism?

IF he was not, then modern Judaism IS still the main branch.

The only difference is if you believe he was THE Messiah or not. Obviously you do not if you are not a Christian.

What I don't understand is the desire to try and sidestep this division of belief by saying "Oh, you can believe he's YOUR messiah, but you can't believe he's the JEWISH Messiah, that's offensive to Judaism."

I don't recognize that there's any Messiah other than the Jewish one...

[Jnyusa]

Hal, there is a fundamental difference between the following two statements:

I am x.

You are y.

Unless you can acknowledge that making statements about another person is different from making statements about yourself, this conversation can go nowhere.

The Messiah you recognize is NOT the Jewish Messiah. Your messianic beliefs bear no resemblance to Jewish messianic beliefs. Do not tell me who my Messiah is.

I get it that you don't understand why this is offensive to me. Please just trust me that it is.

Call Jesus the Christian Version of the Jewish Messiah if you wish.

jn

[halplm]

But I don't believe there's any such thing as the "Christian version of the Jewish Messiah."

You seem to be telling me that I'm not allowed to believe Jesus is the Messiah looked for in Judaism.

Clearly you do not believe he is, but I don't understand how you can say I can't believe that.

I understand he is not what you believe the Messiah is supposed to be. I think you are wrong. That doesn't mean I think less of you as a person...

[Primula Baggins]

Hal, I've gathered that you aren't interested in what mainstream churches have to say, but I feel obliged to post that mainstream Christian denominations do not regard themselves as any kind of continuation of, or replacement for, Judaism. We share roots and study the history and have some sacred texts in common, but we are a different faith. Christ is important to us not because he was the Jewish Messiah, but because he is Christ.

And it is, in my view, impolite (at the very least) to try to define other people's core beliefs for them. I had some of my own beliefs incorrectly defined in the recent past, and I felt extremely angry and hurt. It's no different for anyone else. I am sure you don't wish to anger or hurt people, but that's what's happening.

[Faramond]

Hal is clearly correct in saying that according to Christians Jesus is the Jewish messiah. When you get right down to it, Christians pretty much have to believe they are Jews, even if it's almost never put in those terms. Christian belief doesn't make any sense if it's severed from its Jewish roots. So, the hard thing, the thing that causes offense and makes this such a difficult discussion is that Christianity has a definite opinion on what Judaism truly is. It has to.

Why weren't you offended by what I said, Jn?

In any case, I think the bolded part describes exactly why this discussion can quickly turn to trouble.

Like it or not, Christianity has a definite opinion on what Judaism is. A lot of the Torah ( all of it? ) is included in the Bible, but it seems to mean something different in the Bible than it does in the Torah. Perhaps in that case Christianity is institutionally offensive to Judaism.

None of this stuff is particularly easy or pleasant. I don't think there are any good answers here.