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[vison]

Sexist? Really? Are you claiming women never, ever date big dumb slabs of beef just because "he's sooooo hot"?


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The visual aspect I'll never forget from "A New Hope"

Except when it made such a lasting impression on both of us, it wasn't called "A New Hope....."

For the luvva pete, solictr. That guy's remarks were pathetic and self-revealing: "out of our intellectual depth". What a dork.

If he had said, "I have dated dumb women just because they were gorgeous", who could argue?

But no, from some imaginary lofty height of brilliance: "out of our intellectual depth"! Yeah, so deep!!!

I daresay the low-intellect women he dated found him to be a crashingly smug snotty bore.

[Padme]

The reason he dated the dumb beautiful women is because the smart beautiful women wouldn't date him. Probably why he didn't date at all.

[Inanna]

I'm not just saying Gollum was better written, I'm saying that, visually, he was more interesting to look at then the Navi, despite the Navi looking more real. I'm saying "better tech" does not equal "better looks".

How can you compare the two? They are different characters. They have been created for completely different scenarios.

The same with all the sets in LOTR - they are mind-blowing and fantastic. I loved the first sight of Gondor, always will. But its part of a beautiful story. Pandora is well... just different, made with the purpose of being different.

For the luvva pete, solictr. That guy's remarks were pathetic and self-revealing: "out of our intellectual depth". What a dork.

If he had said, "I have dated dumb women just because they were gorgeous", who could argue?

Vison, that's probably just bad writing practice. Let's use big phrases, complicated words, not say something simply. Its stupid.

[yovargas]

I'm not just saying Gollum was better written, I'm saying that, visually, he was more interesting to look at then the Navi, despite the Navi looking more real. I'm saying "better tech" does not equal "better looks".

How can you compare the two?

How can I compare the visual artistry of one movie to another's? I dunno, by looking at it, I suppose. No different than comparing the quality of the stories as far as I can tell, though perhaps more difficult to talk about.

[Inanna]

But LOTR's visual artistry was but a part of the movie, and how we perceived and appreciated/disliked the visual artistry depended a lot on on the fabric of the story.

Of course, you can compare, in terms of, say, CG which looks like CG, and seems disjointed from the people in it. But Gollum and the Navi are so different that to call one visually more 'interesting', completely devoid from everything else about them seems, well, difficult to comprehend.

Gollum depicted a character, and his visualization had to match that character. The Navi could have looked like anything - they just had to be different enough and similar enough from humans.

[yovargas]

how we perceived and appreciated/disliked the visual artistry depended a lot on on the fabric of the story.

Couldn't one also fairly say "how we perceived and appreciated/disliked the the fabric of the story depended a lot on on the visual artistry."?

[Frelga]

I liked Navi. I liked the way they twitched their ears and tails to suit their moods. I liked the graceful way they moved. I liked that they looked alien without weird appendages.

On a different note - I watched Disney's Alladin show, and the genie was cracking jokes. He said, "Who am I? I am blue, I have pointy ears. I am your Avatar!"

[Inanna]

how we perceived and appreciated/disliked the visual artistry depended a lot on on the fabric of the story.

Couldn't one also fairly say "how we perceived and appreciated/disliked the the fabric of the story depended a lot on on the visual artistry."?

Of course. And that's my point, innit, they're linked.

Anyway, moot argument, I feel. I don't like comparing people, comparing things movies or books, much. My protest on your comments probably comes from this deep-rooted "why should I compare" question than anything else.

@ Frelga: But the Genie is NOT a person's avatar.

[Teremia]

OK, I finally got to see Avatar, and enjoyed it fine.

I think there's a kind of sad story hidden in all that prettiness, though: something about videogame addiction and how imagination has shriveled up to the point that

the videogaming boy (who in an earlier era was the Velveteen Rabbit, longing to be Real) now thinks "Real" means . . . more videogame.

(When he traded his Level 6 Steed for a Level 8 Fire-Winged Upgrade, I laughed out loud!)

I kind of wanted the film to run with that allegory in a different, darker direction -- maybe kill off the avatar and make the real guy have to spend his life being the non-digital being in the digital forest, having to learn to do things with his HANDS, with EFFORT, and not just by jumping magically onto flying creatures.

Oh, and I also wish my puppy had an instant-obedience-plug thing.

I enjoyed my outing, though!

[River]

Teremia, I think you're being a bit unfair to the male lead. The most poignant moment in the whole movie for me was when Jake Sully woke up in his avatar for the first time and discovered he could wiggle his toes. And then he found that he could stand. And walk. And run. I found the medics' attempts to restrain him rather funny - did they not realize that this was the first time this guy had been able to stand up and walk in a very long time??

[Teremia]

It's not so much the male lead I had in mind, somehow, as the whole target audience of people who have transferred a large chunk of their lives into the virtual world.

(His being paralyzed was a kind of allegory, too -- how limited we all feel in real life.)

This is coming out very disjointed, but I blame the puppy. I type for two seconds and then must throw the tennis ball again. No train of thought can be longer than about two cars' worth.

[Primula Baggins]

I really need to see this. We've had house guests for 13 of the past 16 days, so this weekend has been introvert refilling-the-well time (let's pull down the shades and pretend we're not home!), but maybe next weekend.

[Frelga]

I agree with River. Insofar as the movie can be said any emotional weight it is came from Jake realizing that his Avatar is dealing with real people and real big problems. I don't disagree with Teremia either - I did not like the glib and predictable way the movie worked out all the plot points. It was a fun nice movie, that did not even try to be anything more.

[yovargas]

(When he traded his Level 6 Steed for a Level 8 Fire-Winged Upgrade, I laughed out loud!)

Ha!

[Padme]

Well Avatar is #4 over all worldwide money making movie with 1.018 billion. http://www.boxofficemojo.com/alltime/world/

[vison]

Prim, it's an enjoyable movie. Yes, it is full of cliche moments, but so what? If Cameron had come up with a story we'd never seen before, he would be much more than a mere moviemaker! There are only so many stories - he tells this one in a fun way. I didn't go looking for "deep", I went to be entertained.

I have been deeply moved and disturbed by the odd movie in my life, but no movie has ever affected me the way books do. I guess that's my loss, but it's the way it is.

The "message" of Avatar might seem to us to be presented in a simplistic or cliched way, but I don't think we are precisely the intended market for the movie. We are a bookish and rather odd crowd, are we not?

I remember when FOTR was first out and the shock of some reviewers that millions of READERS were flocking to a movie "made for 14 year old boys". The LOTR movies turned out to be more than that, thankfully, but even if they hadn't, they would still have been a great success.

There are maybe - I hope - going to be a few Avatar fans who will take the message seriously and that's a good thing, don't you think?

[Voronwë the Faithful]

vison, I don't think that is your loss. I think it shows that you are a woman of taste. And for once you and I are pretty much in complete agreement.

[vison]

Hm. And here I thought it was an earthquake . . . .

[solicitr]

There are maybe - I hope - going to be a few Avatar fans who will take the message seriously and that's a good thing, don't you think?

Um, no.

[Primula Baggins]

I am all astonishment.