Take me out to the ballgame!

[Griffon64]

Seems like it is official: Torre in to manage the Dodgers, three years at 14.5 million:

article

[Sassafras]

Congratulations Dodger fans. You are getting a great manager and he's bringing Mattingly and Bowa with him.

I think he will do very well and will bring a unity that your clubhouse has not seen in quite a while. I fully expect the Dodgers to seriously contend for the division.

See, I knew Torre spurning the Yankee offer had nothing to do with the money. Just to refresh, the contract was for $5.mill with an additional 1 million for each round of the playoffs totaling $8. million for the year, and were the Yankees to reach the WS in 08, the contract automatically extended into 09.

What Torre wanted was commitment. The LAD has given him that. I heard him on the radio today and he said he would have signed w/ Yanks for a guaranteed 2 years. He also made a distinction between 'incentives' (which he considered insulting) and the 'bonus' which was always written into his previous contracts. It may be mere semantics for some, but I, for one, believe him.

West coast baseball just got a whole lot more interesting.

[Griffon64]

Sooooo .... Sass.

What's these rumours about the Yankees negotiating with A-Rod sans Boras?

Won't that be something?

[Sassafras]

Hah!

I was just coming in to blow the dust off of this thread.

I've been glued to the radio, Griff and busy posting on NYYfans.

Yes, it's all true per Leon Trost (official Yankee spokesman). Alex approached the Yankees and the stipulation (by Yanks F.O.) was that Boras could not be part of negations.

Statement from Alex Rodriguez:

"After spending time with Cynthia and my family over these last few weeks, it became clear to me that I needed to make an attempt to engage the Yankees regarding my future with the organization.

"Prior to entering into serious negotiations with other clubs, I wanted the opportunity to share my thoughts directly with Yankees' ownership. We know there are other opportunities for us, but Cynthia and I have a foundation with the club that has brought us comfort, stability and happiness.

"As a result, I reached out to the Yankees through mutual friends and conveyed that message. I also understand that I had to respond to certain Yankees concerns, and I was receptive and understanding of that situation.

"Cynthia and I have since spoken directly with the Steinbrenner family. During these healthy discussions, both sides were able to share honest feelings and hopes with one another, and we expect to continue this dialogue with the Yankees over the next few days,"

I am happy because we don't have to give up any of young stud pitchers ( Hughes, Chamberlain, Kennedy) for Miguel Cabrera or for Mike Lowell whose 07 numbers were inflated by playing at Fenway. If you look at his spray chart, a huge majority of his hits were off of the Green Monster -- those would be fly ball outs in Yankee Stadium's Left Field.

And .... I am really thrilled that Boras has (apparently) received a swift kick in the pants.

Most Yankee fans feel like this







Me too.

[Griffon64]

I'm happy with the apparent force applied to Boras' backside, myself

I'm less happy at the thought that the Dodgers might be dumb enough to trade almost half their starting lineup for Cabrera. That would really tick me off enormously and make 2008 a sour year to be a Dodger fan.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Barry Bonds was indicted today for perjury and obstruction. Most interesting, the indictment alleges that he failed a drug test for anabolic steroids. That is the first time I have heard that. If true, they probably have a pretty good case, but it begs the question: if so, what took so long? They released Greg Anderson from jail without his testimony. Something doesn't add up, although I'll reserve judgment until the case plays out. One thing is clear though; his career is over, and his legacy destroyed, regardless of what happens in the criminal case. I'd say McGuire has a better chance of reaching the Hall than Bonds does at this point.

Meanwhile, apparently the Yankees and A-Rod have reached a tentative agreement on a $275 million dollar deal, that will enable A-Rod to make millions more if he breaks Bonds' record.

Kind of ironic to have those two pieces of news side by side.

[Sassafras]

I heard the news earlier today and thought of commenting -- but since the last time the steroid issue was brought up, acrimony resulted, I thought better of it.

I'll just say that I am sad to see that the witch hunt has apparently succeeded. Although, to be fair, I suppose I should separate taking steroids from perjury and obstruction of justice.

As you say, his legacy is destroyed

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I thought about not mentioning it but it is just too important to ignore. The holder of the two most sacred records of the grand ole game indicted on felony charges. (Come to think of it, I don't recall much if any talk about the fact that with Bonds' breaking of the career home run record the career record and the single season record were held by the same person for the first time in 46 years). From a legal point of view, these kind of charges are pretty rare, and the effort to get Bonds virtually unprecedented. Still, if the evidence truly is strong enough to convince a jury of his peers beyond a reasonable doubt that he lied under oath and obstructed the investigation, he deserves what he gets. Only time will tell.

[Faramond]

He still belongs in the Hall of Fame. As for the rest I don't much care about the charges against Bonds. I'm more interested in the names that may come up in the Mitchell report.

I was looking forward to seeing who would gambled on giving Bonds a contract next year. It sure doesn't seem that he'll play again, does it? He was actually really good last year, still with his usual insane on-base percentage.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I was looking forward to seeing who would gambled on giving Bonds a contract next year.

Me too. I'm not convinced that anyone would have, anyway. In a weird sort of way, he may have been saved from another kind of humiliation, because at least now no one expects him to sign on with another team. But I can't help wondering whether the Giants had advance knowledge that this was coming, given the categorical way that they cut him loose. Maybe not, but something does stink.

[Frelga]

At the risk of incurring the wrath of resident lawyers, I think this persecution (prosecution, too) is a waste of time and money. Even if the law was broken, doesn't anyone stop to ask the question of was anyone harmed by the alleged crime, and is the defendant any threat to the society? IIRC, actually taking steroids was not illegal when Bonds took them.

Don't we have more important cases of obstruction of justice to prosecute?

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Well, since this resident lawyer basically feels exactly the same way (and am the only one likely to see your comment), I don't think there is much likely of incurring too much wrath.

[Faramond]

The entire justice system is harmed by perjury and obstruction of justice, so yeah, if guilty Barry was doing harm.

And taking steroids was illegal at the time Barry was allegedly doing it, was it not?

[Sassafras]

The entire justice system is harmed by perjury and obstruction of justice, so yeah, if guilty Barry was doing harm.

And taking steroids was illegal at the time Barry was allegedly doing it, was it not?

No. Bonds was brought before the Grand Jury in December 2003 to answer questions about his (alleged) steroid use 2000-2002.

• Before 2002, Major League Baseball had no official policy on steroid use among players. As part of a collective bargaining agreement, players and owners agree to hold survey testing in 2003. If more than 5% of results from the anonymous tests are positive, formal testing and penalties will be put into place the next year.

Link to indictment:

http://www.ktvu.com/download/2007/1115/14608977.pdf

I just want to know why they waited 4 years. Who are these 'compelling'
witnesses? His ex-paramour? She has an ax to grind. Not Greg Anderson -- he spent a year in jail without testifying. I expect that most likely think he (Bonds) lied under oath ... but the question remains ... how can it be proved? The test samples are 6 years old and I'm sure that any good defense lawyer could raise the specter of reasonable doubt for any jury.

Voronwë: Question. What are the standards for conviction in a federal case such as this? Preponderance of evidence?

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Sass, steroid use didn't violate MLB rules at that time, but (I believe) that Steroids were classed as a controlled substance under Federal law, and that possession of them was a crime. So Faramond is right.

I just want to know why they waited for 4 years. Who are these 'compelling'
witnesses? His ex-paramour? She has an ax to grind. Not Greg Anderson -- he spent a year in jail without testifying. I expect that most likely think he lied under oath ... but the question remains ... how can it be proved? The test samples are 6 years old and I'm sure that any good defense lawyer could raise the specter of reasonable doubt for any jury.

I have the same questions, and more. The most compelling evidence is supposed to be the positive tests. But those tests were supposed to come from Balco, and Comte categorically denies that Barry ever tested positive for steroids in testing done by Balco (the testing was supposed to be to see whether supplements that they were giving him unknowingly contained steroids or testosterone). One can question Comte's value as a witness, but he has actually turned out to be right on the money in other circumstances (for instance, he insisted all along that Marion Jones was dirty, even in the face of a huge defamation lawsuit by her, and she was).

From the beginning, this investigation has been conducted with at least the appearance of being for the purpose of "getting" Bonds, no matter what. I agree with Faramond that if he clearly and truly and knowingly lied under oath, he deserves to be convicted, but I think they are going to have a hard time proving that. And I wouldn't at all be surprised if things get turned around and the actions of the investigators end up getting questioned at least as much as Bonds'.

What are the standards for conviction in a federal case such as this? Preponderance of evidence?

All criminal cases requiring proof beyond a reasonable doubt, and require the concurrence of a unanimous jury.

[Sassafras]

All criminal cases requiring proof beyond a reasonable doubt, and require the concurrence of a unanimous jury.

Then it would seem that the Feds are on shaky ground. Which is difficult to believe. I heard a lawyer on ESPN catagorically state that the Feds usually do not prosecute unless they are well nigh certain their evidence will convict.

Perhaps the 4 years was spent gathering more and more evidence.

I still think it's a witchhunt and I think it has similarities to the Martha Stewart case: a message is being sent. It isn't so much that either of them (supposedly) violated the law .... it's that they lied about breaking laws under oath.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I heard a lawyer on ESPN catagorically state that the Feds usually do not prosecute unless they are well nigh certain their evidence will convict.

Federal prosecutions have a very high rate of success. But perjury cases are probably the least successful. About 25% of federal perjury defendants are acquitted.

The four year long investigation is unusual, but not unheard of. But so far as I can tell, they have not gathered ANY additional evidence over the course of the last two grand juries. It may be recalled that there was the original grand jury that indicted the Balco defendants, then a second grand jury was impanelled to investigate Bonds' alleged perjury and tax evasion (this originally started as an IRS investigation, remember, but there were never any tax charges filed against anyone), Anderson was jailed, then that grand jury expired with no indictment, Anderson was released, a new grand jury was inpanelled, Anderson was jailed again on the theory that his testimony was necessary to get an indictment, and then the indictment went down without Anderson's testimony. So far as I can determine, the only reason for the delay was to get Anderson's testimony, and they never did. Now here is the interesting part. The U.S. Attorney in the San Francisco office, Kevin Ryan, was one of the nine that were fired by the Bush administration, and he was replaced by a temporary political appointment. It was that temporary U.S. attorney that made the decision to indict Bonds despite not getting Anderson's testimony. And then a couple of days later, Bush nominated his permanent replacement.

It could be that they have more solid evidence than has been shown, but from where I sit, this prosecution isn't going anywhere. Except that it will still destroy what was left of Bonds' reputation. And that is what IRS agent Jeff Novitzky (the bulldog agent that pushed this investigation from the beginning) set out to do from the start.

[Faramond]

If it's an unfair prosecution it might actually help his reputation, a little bit.

I think it's destroyed what was left of his career.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

If it's an unfair prosecution it might actually help his reputation, a little bit.

Maybe. It's hard to say. And it may turn out that they really have come up with more evidence over the course of the investigation. Only time will tell.

I think it's destroyed what was left of his career.

That is true. Not that there was much left, but I think he probably had another 20 home runs in him, and potentially could have helped the right team get over the hump. I remember the way he dominated the 2002 World Series, and I was genuinely happy for him that he was going to finally win that championship. Then Dusty Baker gave Russ Ortiz the game ball before the game was over, and the rest was history.

Meanwhile, I should mention that we have watched Ken Burns series "Baseball" over the last couple of months. Great stuff, particularly his presentation of race relations in baseball. What a great, great man Buck O'Neal was. So much dignity. And, of course, Jackie Robinson.

[Sassafras]

Yes, yes, you can.
.
.
.
.
.


Congratulations on your third MVP award.



It should have been unanimous but two writers from Michigan (surprise!!) gave their first place votes to Magglio.