Roe v Wade has been overturned. How do you feel about that?

[anthriel]

Faramond:

[yovargas]

Faramond, since you seem so confident what this argument is really about, would you mind just telling us??


EDIT - That question wasn't meant as condescendingly as it might sound. It was meant seroiusly.

[halplm]

That's because it is impossible hal. When you get married and start having a physical relationship with a woman, you'll then understand.

This is totally unrelated, of course, but I still disagree that it is impossible. I certainly agree it is undesirable, but if people can go without physical relationships outside of marriage, there's no reason they can't go without them inside of marriage.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

What Whistler said. In particular, have a care about recharacterizing what people say into your own words. That is a recipe for disaster.

[Impenitent]

Your response has disappointed me, Faramond. Your sweep of the broom has carried out more than the trash. Step back if you are at that point of frustration and anger that causes you to insult others.

[anthriel]

yov, that's not helpful.

Edit: saw your edit! I apologize for reading into your post incorrectly, there.. thanks for the clarification, yov.


Guys, we REALLY need to take a bit of a breather on this. There is SO much raw emotion in this thread, and I can just feel my back tensing up reading this stuff... we're gonna get in a big old knock down fight (with friends!) over something that has very little to do with Alito and the longevity of Roe vs. Wade.

In fact, I'll bet we won't even know what we are fighting about.

[Primula Baggins]

I liked this thread when it was about people explaining the basis for their own beliefs. There was a potential for illumination there.

Once we start explaining to each other the basis for each other's beliefs, the light goes right out.

[halplm]

I would say this whole debate is a recipe for disaster, it always is...

Faramond, I agree with a lot of what you say, but at the same time, simplification is not trivialization.

My stance is also not one that takes peoples decisions lightly, or can take into account the vast number of variables a woman must consider when making such a choice.

There are different questions being debated. There's a "Should abortion be legal or should it not be"" question, which is Roe v Wade. There's a "Is Abortion right or wrong?" question which is closes to what I'm trying to get at with seeing it as murder or not. And there's an individual's question of "should I get an abortion or not" which no one can answer except that person, although both of the previous questions impact that decision.

That's why the debate gets so complicated, everyoen has a position on every different aspect and simplification is viewed as ignoring the complexity of people's individual situations.

It's a very personal decision, with lots of people not involved shouting opinions.

Women have been having abortions for all of history. If it were illegal, that wouldn't stop them from happening. It never has. All it does is make having them more dangerous to the mother. If there is any argument for keeping them legal, that is it, in my mind. whether or not it's murder doesn't enter into that question.

That's why I try to say it's a different question.

[anthriel]

Yes, hal, it usually is.

We just got a run of "tough" words going (and I'm not just talking about one person, here) and the emotions are zinging through the roof.

We can do this, guys. We were doing great. These are your friends, whom you respect in so many ways. They are not horrible people whose sole intent to kill babies nor oppress women, not on either side.

DEEP breath.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I would say this whole debate is a recipe for disaster, it always is...

Yes, I agree it is a difficult subject. All the more reason why it is important to discuss it. And all the more reason to make every effort to do in a respectful fashion, without insulting those who you disagree with (the "you" is not directed at you, hal - I think you have been perfectly respectful in this thread).

[truehobbit]

Those are extreme, disgusting, foul ways to characterize a fetus, and I'm not going to let them pass without condemnation!

I agree with Faramond here and I would therefore like both sides to be careful about the words they choose!

[Primula Baggins]

But it's also important to be accurate. Some people, including me, have compared cancer to pregnancy. That doesn't mean any of us necessarily considers a fetus equivalent to a tumor. It might simply mean we're looking for parallels (or drawing contrasts). Also, some words are emotionally fraught for some people and not for others.

[yovargas]

May I remind everyone that nobody said a fetus was a cancer or a parasite, but that an unwanted fetus could feel like this to a frightened mother. Having never experience an unwanted pregnancy, I can't say that they are wrong about that.

[Faramond]

I can read the signs. And I'm not a flaming monster. Just a rash Faramonster.

There's no point in fighting everyone here. I am sorry I insulted everyone in this thread. What does this mean, I wonder? I don't want to make one of those phoney-baloney apologies where I say "I'm sorry if you were offended". I'm sorry that our viewpoints are completely alien to each other, that no communication can breach the gulf between us. I'm sorry that I couldn't find a way to say what I wanted to say without insulting nearly everyone in the thread to the point that a "calm down and take it back" mob was formed. I'm sorry that I insulted Sass and Cerin and Impy and vison and Eru. I hope I haven't left anyone out. I think highly of you all, but I guess I truly do not understand your various points of view.

I suppose there's no point in me saying how deeply hurt and shocked I was to see a fetus called a parasite or a cancer. Or how hurt I am that if I dare to even consider the status of the fetus I will be sternly told to "mind my own business", that my even considering things from the perspective of the fetus is wrong from the beginning. But I say it anyway, as my parting words.

[Impenitent]

Hal, thank you for the delineation you offer. You are quite right - you have distilled the chaos into the three pertinent, separate issues, which are intertwined.

I would like to speak to the issue of labelling the embryo/foetus as parasitic. I am perplexed as to why this has raised the ire of so many, as it is entirely factual. Ask any obstetrician, who will confirm it without a raised eyebrow.

That tiny child, before it is quite a child - just like all embryos/foetuses, whether human or animal - change the body chemistry of the mother to suit itself. The embryo even modifies the mother's immune system, to ensure that it is not attacked and destroyed as any other intruder in the body would be (and sometimes that mechanism doesn't quite work and the host/mother's immune system does attack the embryo).

And it is the parasitic nature of pregnancy that causes all of the side effects that women variously complain about - the nausea, the oedema, the blood pressure problems etc.

The baby-in-utero sets up its own life-support system in such a way that it takes what it needs first. Luckily, today, the vast majority of mothers get enough nutrition and care for this not to have permanent negative impact upon us but it was not always so through history. It used to be said that the mother lost a tooth for every baby - due to inadequate care and nutrition of the mother.

Why take offence at the facts? There is nothing intrinsically negative about recognising that pregnancy in all mammals is a parasitic process - it is factual and it is also the miracle of reproduction and life. It really is!

I jokingly called my first child - my daughter - "my little parasite" whenever I referred to my baby-in-utero. Partly, this was a way of deflecting my fear that the pregnancy may fail (thus distancing myself a little, rather than using a pet name which would bond me and make the child even more dear to me); but partly it was also because I suffered dreadful morning sickness for almost 7 months and I certainly knew the cause of it!

EDIT: Faramond, I posted before reading yours so please be assured that I did not choose to discuss the term 'parasite' as some kind of one-upmanship. It was written in response to other posts above, without reference to yours.

At the same time, though, I have found your non-apology rather facile. What do you mean by saying you're sorry you offended me and then winking? If you don't feel like apologising, if you stand by what you said, then don't apologise.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

It is the recharacterization of people's words that I am concerned about. There's nothing wrong with disagreeing with what people say, even strenuously. But disagree with what people say, not what you say people say.

Faramond, please don't leave the thread. Let's work on this together. Even if we don't successfully bridge the gap, we will be better off for the attempt. Really.

[anthriel]

Well, I did offer the suggestion to "calm down" (in not so many words, I guess).


I didn't tell anyone to take anything back.


I probably shouldn't have stepped in at all. Shoulda just


I'll remember, next time.

[Impenitent]

I did ask Faramond to take back what he said, his opinion that I consider a fetus to be trash.

I may be a little sensitive to this, as I did abort a pregnancy and I therefore took this as a personal judgement.

[yovargas]

I probably shouldn't have stepped in at all. Shoulda just

Lies. You make damn near every thread better, especially threads like this.

[/i]

[Faramond]

Anth, you must not think you did anything wrong. It was a wonderful and generous gesture.

V, I'm clearly not emotionally stable enough right now to participate in this thread. I will harm myself and others if I remain here.