Memorable Lines and Short Passages

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I'm starting this thread purely and simply because this line that Gandalf says to Pippin after learning that Frodo has taken Gollum as his guide leapt out at me on my current reading of LOTR, and I wanted to comment on it, but I couldn't think of any other way to do so:

Let us remember that a traitor may betray himself and do good that he does not intend. It can be so, sometimes.

I just love this concept. I couldn't begin to say why, right now, so I'm not even going to try. Maybe later. Or maybe one of my sweet-tongued friends can explain it better then me ( ).

I know that I'm not the only one that often rereads passages from different works of Tolkien or the whole works themselves. Let this thread be a place to post particular lines or short passages that happen to jump out at you at a particular time.

Or maybe not.

[truehobbit]

Nice idea, Voronwë! Do you mean lines that jump out at you for the insight they provide or also just because they are beautiful?

(As to your quote - I tried to make an interpretative comment and started twice, but noticed while writing that I wasn't hitting the point! So I decided to follow your wisdom in that! )

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Nice idea, Voronwë! Do you mean lines that jump out at you for the insight they provide or also just because they are beautiful?

Let's make it easy and say either.

(As to your quote - I tried to make an interpretative comment and started twice, but noticed while writing that I wasn't hitting the point! So I decided to follow your wisdom in that! )

Its harder then it seems, isn't it?

[Alatar]

How interesting! If I were to pick a line that I dislike most in LotR, that would probably be it! Different strokes huh?

My favourite line?

"And they sang as they slew for the joy of battle was upon them and the sound of that singing that was fair and terrible came even to the city"

I'm not checking it, cause whether I've misquoted or not, that's the line I remember and that stays with me.

[Primula Baggins]

There are dozens of lines that jump out for me.

The first one that occurs to me, though:

There still he stood far into the night, hearing only the sigh and murmur of the waves on the shores of Middle-earth, and the sound of them sank deep into his heart.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

How interesting! If I were to pick a line that I dislike most in LotR, that would probably be it!

Why, Al? Do you disagree that it can be so?

[BrianIsSmilingAtYou]

Let us remember that a traitor may betray himself and do good that he does not intend. It can be so, sometimes.

I just love this concept. I couldn't begin to say why, right now, so I'm not even going to try. Maybe later. Or maybe one of my sweet-tongued friends can explain it better then me (

This is one of the most fundamental concepts in Tolkien's moral universe. I would even say that the second half of it is very near to being the foundation.

See Ainulindalë:

And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.

I had copied the following quote from TORC (I think) a while ago, but I don't remember who wrote it, and a search gave no hits. It is somewhat related to this idea.

Furthermore, your question echoes of the old ethical debate between deontology (‘one should not perform evil deeds, whatever the cost may be’) and consequentialism (‘one should be ready to perform evil deeds if that may prevent greater evil’). Tolkien (like the Catholic church) promoted deontology. Another example might be Gandalf’s and Frodo’s pity toward Gollum: a consequentialist would certainly have killed him, hoping to prevent him from doing more harm. But the way Tolkien decided to craft the story shows that, had they done that, Gollum would have been absent when Frodo failed at the Sammath Naur and the Ring would never have been destroyed; it seems to me that Tolkien wished to illustrate there his belief that consequentialism is not only wrong morally, but also wrong practically (unwise, so to speak). I therefore cannot imagine for one second that he could have envisioned Elrond killing Isildur in order to destroy the Ring and avert greater evil.

BrianIs AtYou

[Impenitent]

Brian the Smiley, that fabulous quote gave me an "Ah ha!" moment, because I recall a thread (on TORC) where we discussed precisely the question of why Elrond did not kill Isildur at that moment; we explored it from many angles and came up with many reasons but not that one, and it seems to me that IS the answer to that question!

I love it! Having left that question dangling in the back of my mind for perhaps two years, the answer finally comes.

[Frelga]

Brian, that's the great explanation for a great line.

Alatar, I also find the passage of the Ride of the Rohirrim the most beautiful one in the book.

But the line that comes to mind tonight is, "Do not scorn the pity that is the gift of a gentle heart." Why did it occur to me now I can't say.

And for some reason the line I mentioned in another thread, "from Lamedon, a few grim hillmen without a Captain" always haunts me as no other mystery in the book.

[MaidenOfTheShieldarm]

The lines that Alatar and Prim quoted are favourites of mine as well.

Also,

'Éowyn, Éowyn,' he cried at last. 'Éowyn, how come you here? What madness or devilry is this? Death, death, death! Death take us all!'

And then, without taking counsel or waiting for the approach of the men of the city, he spurred headlong to the front of the great host and blew upon a horn and cried aloud for the onset. His clear voice rang over the field calling 'Death! Ride, ride for ruin and the world's ending!'

I always find the first bit especially heartbreaking.

[Alatar]

How interesting! If I were to pick a line that I dislike most in LotR, that would probably be it!

Why, Al? Do you disagree that it can be so?

It's not that I disagree with the concept, the line just feels clumsy to me. It's like a big exclamation mark "Important Plot Point, pay attention". It's the lack of subtlety that bugs me. And before anyone asks, I remember feeling it on my first reading also, it's not a retrospective thing. Even as a sentence construct it sits awkwardly on the mind. Also, it feels like the author talking through Gandalf, rather than the Gandalf himself. It just takes me out of the story every time.

Sorry

[truehobbit]

How interesting! If I were to pick a line that I dislike most in LotR, that would probably be it! Different strokes huh?

Hehe, and the line you quoted would be one I dislike, even though it's lovely in terms of poetry.
You've given a good analysis of what makes you dislike Voronwë's quote - so, what makes you like yours so much?

(I think this thread will be far more interesting if we at least try to explain why we like a certain quote so much! )

Its harder then it seems, isn't it?

Yes, because there seem to be a lot of facets to it!

What Brian said covers most of them, though, I think.

Brian, I think the quote from TORC comes very close to it, indeed! The point about "evil that is yet good to have been" came to my mind yesterday, too, but in order to really account for Gandalf's sentiment here, I think there's something else in here, which I can't really grasp - something about the "betraying himself" part, I think. No time to figure it out more right now, though.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Ok, one of my favourites, one which always comes to mind among the first when asked that question:

Yet its waters were dark: a deep blue like clear evening sky seen from a lamp-lit room.

Different reasons for this, but the most important is that I've always been in awe at the particular quality of the blue of an evening sky when seen from inside a lit room!
And when I tried to point it out to people, I always looked into faces somewhat like this:
So, when I first read this line it almost knocked me off the sofa! What a joy to find that someone else had after all noticed this, too!
I also think it's a particularly imaginative simile to come up with, and, for anyone who has ever noticed that particular blue, one conveying a powerful sense of a rather unearthly beauty.

[Sassafras]

This,

"It's sunlight and bright day, right enough. I thought that Elves were all for moon and stars: but this is more elvish than anything I ever heard
tell of.
I feel as if I was inside a song, if you take my meaning."

because Sam's simple words in Lothlórien of being inside the song describe how Middle-earth draws me in and makes me a believer far more acutely than any scholarly treatise ever could.

Tolkien had a gift for the turn of a phrase that speaks truth, first to our hearts, and then only after to our minds.

Or so I believe.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

So I believe, as well.

[vison]

Thank you, Sassafras, that says it exactly.

[truehobbit]

Tolkien had a gift for the turn of a phrase that speaks truth, first to our hearts, and then only after to our minds.

Very well put, Sassy!

I guess this calls for quoting the Little Prince :
On ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur. We only see well with our hearts.
(Does anyone have the line as used in the English translation? Mine sounds a bit clumsy, I think.)

[Athrabeth]

I don't know whether to or or , but I just lost a post that I worked on for the better part of an hour.

I'll return with something that hopefully resembles it after I've taken a bit of a cooling-off walk down to the cove.

Poo.

[Alatar]

How interesting! If I were to pick a line that I dislike most in LotR, that would probably be it! Different strokes huh?

Hehe, and the line you quoted would be one I dislike, even though it's lovely in terms of poetry.
You've given a good analysis of what makes you dislike Voronwë's quote - so, what makes you like yours so much?

I think it's the poetry of the line combined with the sense of the epic. The power and majesty of that phrase brings me to tears when I read it. It takes my breath away. And that's why I can forgive it any of it's irrationality. I suppose it's like any sort of love. I know its flaws, but they just don't matter to me.

[BrianIsSmilingAtYou]

I don't know whether to or or , but I just lost a post that I worked on for the better part of an hour.

I'll return with something that hopefully resembles it after I've taken a bit of a cooling-off walk down to the cove.

Poo.

How did you lose the post?

I only ask because there are common ways to "recover" lost posts, if you act right away (i.e. before closing the browser in frustration), and it is a useful thing to know how to do it.

For example, vynaca_of_mirkwood wrote recently about losing a post (on TORC) in this thread in a particular way for which there was in fact an easy way to recover, which I explained in a later post after she wrote of having lost what she had written.

The main problem with "losing" a post is that people panic, and forget about the obvious solutions. As long as the browser window did not close, it is almost always possible to recover a lost post.

Therefore, I would be interested in knowing how you lost the post, if only to provide you with a means to recover lost posts in the future.

BrianIs AtYou

[BrianIsSmilingAtYou]

Tolkien had a gift for the turn of a phrase that speaks truth, first to our hearts, and then only after to our minds.

Very well put, Sassy!

I guess this calls for quoting the Little Prince :
On ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur. We only see well with our hearts.
(Does anyone have the line as used in the English translation? Mine sounds a bit clumsy, I think.)

It would be better phrased as "We see well only with our hearts."

But most people would understand your translation perfectly well with the intended meaning.

BrianIs AtYou