The Heroism of Faramir

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Frelga
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Post by Frelga »

Voronwë_the_Faithful wrote:I'm afraid I think you guys are confusing the book with the movie:
I think you are right, Sir V.

Tom, I absolutely agree with you. It's one thing to listen to Elves while nodding off on the grass. It's quite another to play out such deliberate charade, risking so much in the process.

Besides, Frodo adamantly refuses to tell Faramir about the Ring. I can't see Sam going so deliberately against his master's will. For instance, he disagrees with Frodo about taking Gollum along - he'd rather let archers shoot him, but he stays quiet.

Also, in the book, the good guys don't tell lies. They just don't. It jarred terribly when Frodo said in the movie "There was no other." :x Sam is not simple, but neither is he so devious as V makes him out to be. ;)
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

I'm afraid I still disagree. I think such an action was consistent with Sam's personality. In fact it is his simplemindedness that makes me say that. Sam has a very black and white view of things. When he thought Strider was bad, he was bad. Once he decided he was good, he was good. Boromir was bad; he could not be trusted. Frodo was wise; therefore he was the wisest person in the world (except perhaps Bilbo or Gandalf). But Frodo was kind; therefore he must be blind (thus Sam was shocked at his master's harsh words to Gollum at the Black Gate). Before their conversation at Henneth Annun, Sam isn't sure of Faramir. 'He may be allright,' he thought, 'and then he may not. Fair speech may hide a foul heart.' But then in the course of their conversation during the evening meal, he becomes more convinced of Faramir's trustworthiness. He had noted that Faramir seemed to refer to Elves with reference, and this even more then his courtesy, and his food and wine, had won Sam's respect and quieted his suspicions.

I think that once Faramir won his respect, Sam was convinced in his black and white view of the universe that it was safe to reveal the Ring to him, and that doing so was the best way that he could serve his master. And I believe that Tolkien's descriptions of Sam support this view. Sam was not so humble as most consider him.
Tolkien, in Letter 246 wrote:Sam can be very 'trying'. He is a more representative hobbit than any others that we have to see much of; and he has consequently a stronger ingredient of that quality which even some hobbits found at times hard to bear: a vulgarity -- by which I do not mean a mere 'down-to-earthiness' -- a mental myopia which is proud of itself, a smugness (in varying degrees) and cocksureness, and a readiness to measure and sum up all things from a limited experience, largely enshrined in sententious traditional 'wisdom'. ...

Sam was cocksure, and deep down a little conceited; but his conceit had been transformed by his devotion to Frodo ... .
I think that Sam measured and summed up the situation based on his own limited experience, and concluded that it was safe to reveal the Ring to Faramir, and that to do so was the best way that he could serve his master. I think that in his smug, conceited cocksureness he acted on that myopic conclusion.

And of course he turned out to be right.

This, my friends, is my last word on this subject. :)

Edited to fix typo.
Last edited by Voronwë the Faithful on Thu Jan 18, 2007 7:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Impenitent »

I think you were correct a couple of posts ago: it is not a black/white issue that can be 'proved' - one either believes it of Sam or one does not.

It seems, Vinnie my dear, that your Sam is simply not my Sam, when it comes to the final line. :)
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Post by vison »

:shock:
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Post by Impenitent »

*Worries that she's shocked Vison - something heretofore considered impossible to do!*
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

I suspect that it is more likely that I am the one that shocked vison, my dear Imp.
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

In deference to my statement that I had made my last word on this subject, MithLuin shared some thoughts that she had in response to those "last words" with me privately, so as not to try to force me to go back on my word. However, I think her thoughts are too well-developed and interesting to be shared with only one person. So, with her reluctant approval, I am posting them here. Whether I go back on my previous word and make any further response to her thoughts I have not decided. ;)
MithLuin wrote:I am in partial agreement with you. Sam did decide that Faramir was trustworthy. He would not have 'slipped' if he was still suspicious and on his guard.

But I do not think that it is a valid reading to suppose that Sam revealed the matter of the Ring intentionally. I will not be so cocksure as to tell you that I am right and you are wrong ;), but I do have trouble seeing how you can support your idea based on the text.

Frodo and Faramir were speaking very cautiously to one another. Frodo adopted Faramir's codeword of "heirloom" to refer to the Ring, and would not say (precisely) what Boromir wanted. Sam does not speak in riddles. He is, as you pointed out, more forthright. So, when he tries to handle that part of the conversation, he is (necessarily) less elegant than Frodo in doing so. He admits that Faramir has been "warm" all along, and he wants to clarify it a little bit more... which gives it away. The "Now Boro-" suggests that Sam is not 'intending' to reveal anything. He started to say something, and caught himself. But Faramir presses him, and he does want to set the record straight, so he keeps talking...

[And yes, you could claim that the "Now Boro-" was simply to bait Faramir, to make him press for more details...but this is needlessly involved. If he had said his entire thought, Faramir would have been listening intently and questioning him about it. So, I do not see how "Now Boro-" can be said to support the idea of 'accidentally on purpose.']

Sam's duplicity in the Conspiracy is merely to listen and report. He does not need to create any elaborate charade. He is more observant (and sharper) than he lets on, certainly. But...that is all. Faramir is also very observant, and notices that Sam did not sleep while dinner was prepared. He certainly guesses that it is because he is keeping watch. If there were any hint that Sam had played him...he would have caught on to it.

If Sam trusted Faramir so much, why did he jump up with Frodo and grab for his sword? There is no hint, anywhere, that Sam's reaction was not totally sincere. He blushes and goes white. He admits his error. He challenges Faramir over it. He tries to defend his master. In other words - at no point does he suggest, 'oh, yes, I always knew that was a good plan or the right idea.' Not even after the fact.

As I said, subconsciously, yes. He trusted Faramir, else he wouldn't have let his guard down so much and spoken so freely. But he did not say "let's see what happens if I say "Ring." I give you all your motives except intention. He wanted to be frank, to get things out in the open...that's why he was 'clarifying' what happened with Boromir. But he only intended to make clear Boromir, not the whole Quest, not the Ring. It was a slip.

The conversation he has with Faramir afterwards makes all of this clear. He says, "You took the chance. You showed your quality: the very highest." I do not see how this could be a reference to anything but his previous statement, "here's a chance to show your quality." Faramir's response is equally clear and straightforward, "a pert servant." What makes Sam "pert" here? Well, he just told Faramir, son of the Steward of Gondor, that he has 'the highest quality.' I don't think Faramir is used to having his quality examined (and voiced publically) by his servants. The very act of evaluating Faramir's quality and pronouncing judgement on it is 'pert,' as were Sam's two previous outburts where he basically says 'now look here' to Faramir. Faramir's remark is an evaluation of Sam (from what he has seen so far), but it is also a comment on the immediate situation. So, yes, it was 'pert' of Sam to tell Faramir, 'handsome is as handsome does - now's a chance to show your quality.' He need not have set up the situation on purpose to make it pert!

If you want an example of a 'pert servant' watch Pirates of the Caribbean (the first one). Elizabeth has a conversation with her maid early in the movie, which illustrates this perfectly.
  • Estrella: But the Commodore proposed. Fancy that. Now, that's a smart match, Miss, if it's not too bold to say.
    Elizabeth: It is a smart match. He's a fine man; he's what any woman should dream of marrying.
    Estrella: Well, that Will Turner , he's a fine man, too.
    Elizabeth: That is too bold.
    Estrella: Well, begging your pardon, Miss. It was not my place.
That is what Sam has done - he has commented directly on something that it 'wasn't his place' to say anything about. It was okay for the maid to comment on what Elizabeth had said, but to suggest another man to marry was a bit much.

There are cases where something can be inferred with no hints - inference from absense. But these are usually problematic guesses. For instance, in Lórien, when Sam is describing Galadriel's temptation, he pauses when he says "a hole of my own with - with a bit of garden." Why the pause? Why the blush? Is it beyond his place to want a hole of his own? Or was he going to finish that sentence differently. "A hole of my own with Rosie Cotton," but then thought better of that? You certainly can't prove he was thinking of Rosie, and it's likely that Tolkien himself hadn't come up with Sam+Rosie yet when he wrote it. But it would be hard to prove he wasn't thinking of her!

Thus, I probably can't prove that Sam didn't do it all on purpose, but I can say that there is not a shred of evidence that he did. In my rather bold and not-terribly-humble opinion ;).
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