"Do they run like deer clad only in their hair"

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I'm sure that this has been discussed before, but in my darkness I have lost it. So I am bringing it up again.

Túrin's confrontation with Saeros is centered on the latter's insult in which he asks whether the women of Hithlum "run like deer clad only in their hair?" Then, later, after Nienor's confrontation with Glaurung she "she fled as in a madness of fear, swifter than a deer, and tore off all her clothing as she ran, until she was naked." I don't recall connecting these passages before, though when I think about the similarity is too obvious to ignore. These are the possible explanations that I come up with, off the top of my head.

1. It is a pure coincidence which means nothing at all. I don't but much stock in this possibility.
2. It was an unconscious connection in which Tolkien simply had the image in his head and went with it. More likely, but still, it seems too stark for this to be the case.
3. Saeros was in league with Morgoth all along, and helping to actuate the curse on Húrin's family. I don't really believe this
4. This juxtaposition is a clear indication of just how closely Morgoth was directing the events that lead the Children of Húrin to such a tragic end. This has the ring of truth to me.

Thoughts?

[Alatar]

I just think its a poetic description, the sort of thing Tolkien loved for the beauty of the language. If he had eventually finalised a cohesive text he would have probably only used one of them in the published work. Its a bit like composers using similar themes in draft. They have a nice melody and are looking to see where it fits best.

[Jude]

My guess is that it may be a bit of foreshadowing, possibly unconscious.

I also think that if Tolkien meant for Saeros to be in league with Morgoth, there would be more clues elsewhere. Like Voronwë, I don't think this is the case.

[N.E. Brigand]

What's the name of the place that Niënor dies?

And what has Túrin done to her that causes her death?

And what specifically does Túrin threaten to do to Sareos that results in Saeros meeting a like end?

[Voronwë the Faithful]

What's the name of the place that Niënor dies?

Cabed-en-Aras, which means "The Deer's Leap." Christopher notes in a footnote in UT that this was the original name of the place, (e.g., it was not named that after Nienor leapt there).

And what has Túrin done to her that causes her death?

Impregnated her (or so I have always read it).

And what specifically does Túrin threaten to do to Sareos that results in Saeros meeting a like end?

He strips him of his close and tells him "unless you go as swift as the deer I shall prick you on from behind."

But what does it all mean?

[Frelga]

Children of Húrin is the only part of the legendarium I revisited in years, thanks to the audiobook recorded by Sir Christopher Lee. If you haven't yet, do yourself a favor and listen to it.

If I get to the keyboard at some point, I'll try to put some thoughts on order.

[Jude]

My library doesn't have that audiobook.

Is there anywhere you can by audiobooks that isn't audible?

[N.E. Brigand]

What's the name of the place that Niënor dies?

Cabed-en-Aras, which means "The Deer's Leap." Christopher notes in a footnote in UT that this was the original name of the place, (e.g., it was not named that after Nienor leapt there).

I think that having Niënor die at a place called "The Deer's Leap" is a sign to the reader that the connection to Saeros's death is deliberate.

And what specifically does Túrin threaten to do to Sareos that results in Saeros meeting a like end?

He strips him of his close and tells him "unless you go as swift as the deer I shall prick you on from behind."

I think Tolkien had read both Chaucer and Shakespeare. "Tolkien, please! What's biting you? Dog in the Manger's fleas?"

[Voronwë the Faithful]

What's the name of the place that Niënor dies?

Cabed-en-Aras, which means "The Deer's Leap." Christopher notes in a footnote in UT that this was the original name of the place, (e.g., it was not named that after Nienor leapt there).

I think that having Niënor die at a place called "The Deer's Leap" is a sign to the reader that the connection to Saeros's death is deliberate.

I have little doubt that it is deliberate, nor that it is related to Morgoth's curse, but I can't quite figure out how.

[N.E. Brigand]

That part of my response was meant to rule out nos. 1 and 2 in your list.

I think no. 3 is right except for the word "deliberate," because almost all of us are unknowingly in league with Morgoth -- just ask Mablung -- but no. 4 overstates Morgoth's power or maybe I should say misrepresents how Morgoth's ring works. If it were that easy, Morgoth wouldn't need Glaurung to finish the job.

There's surely a no. 5 into which nos. 3 and 4 are subsumed or which runs parallel to them. And all these internal meanings are part of a no. 6, which is the literary purpose.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

No 6 is easily defined:
"To make a Secondary World inside which the green sun will be credible, commanding Secondary Belief, will probably require labour and thought, and will certainly demand a special skill, a kind of elvish craft. Few attempt such difficult tasks. But when they are attempted and in any degree accomplished then we have a rare achievement of Art: indeed narrative art, story-making in its primary and most potent mode.”

But how to frame No. 5?

[N.E. Brigand]

Ah, but that definition of Patrick McGoohan presupposes that The Children of Húrin is a fairy story, in which case: what is the tale's eucatastrophe?

[Voronwë the Faithful]

The Second Prophecy, complete with Túrin being the one to finally vanquish Morgoth.

[Eldy]

Seeing you lay it out like this, I've no doubt the description of Nienor's death is meant to recall Saeros's line, though it's not a connection I'd ever drawn before. There are a few different possible literary meanings; one that comes to mind for me is that Túrin's actions, in conjunction with the curse and with Glaurung's deeds, have reduced his house to something like the wretched condition Saeros implied. In terms of a more-than-thematic meaning, though, I'm not so sure. I certainly don't think Saeros was in league with Morgoth; Tolkien asked in Letter 175, "Cannot people imagine things hostile to men and hobbits who prey on them without being in league with the Devil", but I wouldn't even say Saeros preys on anyone, he's just an asshole (albeit, in the end, a violent one). I'm wary of (as I see it) overstating the extent to which Morgoth was actively pulling the strings throughout CoH. The Elves tend to invoke Morgoth when warning against bad behaviour in general, as Mablung does several times in the relevant chapter: he cautions Saeros to "[t]ake heed [...] lest you do the will of Morgoth in your pride", he describes Túrin's humiliation of Saeros as "Orc-work", and he quotes the aphorism "malice that wakes in the morning is the mirth of Morgoth ere night". But I'm inclined to interpret such sentiments figuratively, indicating a belief that evil ultimately stems from Morgoth but not that he's actively involved in every bad thing that happens.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Wonderful thoughts, and much food for further thought. Thank you!

But I'm inclined to interpret such sentiments figuratively, indicating a belief that evil ultimately stems from Morgoth but not that he's actively involved in every bad thing that happens.

In most circumstances I would agree with you, but within the Narn e·’Rach Morgoth, The Tale of the Curse of Morgoth, which was Tolkien's alternative title for the Narn, I have pause for thought.

[Eldy]

Thank you for your kind words, Voronwë.

It's been a long time since I've read the Narn all the way through, so I'd need to reread it to have a firmer / more textually grounded opinion on the extent of Morgoth's active involvement, but I take your point. I've long had a vague impression that Tolkien was deliberately ambiguous as to how much was due to the curse as opposed to the internal character flaws of various individuals, but glancing over Christopher's prologue he puts more weight on the curse than I'd remembered (granted, if I ever read the CoH prologue it would've been 15+ years ago; mostly I revisit the version in UT). Unfortunately, a full reread is unlikely to be on my agenda anytime soon.

[Impenitent]

Jude, just letting you know that Children of Húrin audiobook is available on Spotify.

[Frelga]

Saeros was in league with Morgoth all along, and helping to actuate the curse on Húrin's family. I don't really believe this

I don't believe it, either. But, in universe, perhaps there is a the reverse connection. Perhaps Morgoth, watching the Túrin show, saw what Saeros said and how it turned out, and thought, "You know what would be funny?"

[N.E. Brigand]

Wonderful thoughts, and much food for further thought. Thank you!

But I'm inclined to interpret such sentiments figuratively, indicating a belief that evil ultimately stems from Morgoth but not that he's actively involved in every bad thing that happens.

In most circumstances I would agree with you, but within the Narn e·’Rach Morgoth, The Tale of the Curse of Morgoth, which was Tolkien's alternative title for the Narn, I have pause for thought.

Oh, the curse is totally a thing working against Túrin, but Morgoth isn't omniscient.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

No, nor omnipotent. And of course, "thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me."