Trump Charged With 37 counts of Espionage, Obstruction and related crimes

[Voronwë the Faithful]

3. Gen. Mark Milley urged Pres. Trump to order a massive invasion of Iran?

The only thing that we know from that article is that Mark Meadows says in his book that Gen Milley urged Trump to do so, and we knew that already, since it is in Meadows' book. I can think of a less reliable source. Undoubtably there is some modicum of truth to the claim, but I would guess that the actual story is a lot more nuanced than what Meadows writes in his book.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

This is important.



Ironically, if the document was classified at a higher level, it would be more difficult to use is as the basis for an espionage charge because it would be too secret to show to a jury.

[Dave_LF]

Does anyone else find it odd that so much info is leaking regarding the classified documents case but (if memory serves) the only thing we've heard recently about 1/6 is that Pence was interviewed? Is that a sign that they don't think there's enough evidence there to bring charges, that they're focused on one thing at a time, or that they've turned into one and the same case?

[N.E. Brigand]

3. Gen. Mark Milley urged Pres. Trump to order a massive invasion of Iran?

The only thing that we know from that article is that Mark Meadows says in his book that Gen Milley urged Trump to do so, and we knew that already, since it is in Meadows' book. I can think of a less reliable source. Undoubtably there is some modicum of truth to the claim, but I would guess that the actual story is a lot more nuanced than what Meadows writes in his book.

I forgot this 2021 story by Susan Glaser that reported the opposite: she wrote that Milley worked to stop Trump from launching a war on Iran. This was a particular concern during the two months between Trump's election loss in November 2020 and Joe Biden's inauguration in January 2021.

So maybe the two special counsel investigations, as Dave supposes, really are connected now?

[N.E. Brigand]

The recording was made at Trump's Bedminister, New Jersey golf course. Why hasn't the FBI searched that property?

Because we are a nation of laws and one of those laws is that probable cause that evidence of a crime is likely to be found in a particular location is needed to obtain a search warrant of that location. A recording made at a particular location (if it was in fact made at the location, which we don't really know), does not provide probable cause that there are unlawful classified documents presently at that location. Whatever evidence the DoJ and FBI obtained that allowed them to obtain a search warrant of Mar-a-Lago last August, it was a helluva lot more than that.

Perhaps they have evidence that the document is not there? (Pure speculation: maybe he sold it to, say, Saudi Arabia?)

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Does anyone else find it odd that so much info is leaking regarding the classified documents case but (if memory serves) the only thing we've heard recently about 1/6 is that Pence was interviewed? Is that a sign that they don't think there's enough evidence there to bring charges, that they're focused on one thing at a time, or that they've turned into one and the same case?

There has been other news from that investigation. Earlier today this was reported.


US special counsel probes Trump firing of then-top cybersecurity official, NYT reports

[N.E. Brigand]

The recording was made at Trump's Bedminister, New Jersey golf course. Why hasn't the FBI searched that property?

Because we are a nation of laws and one of those laws is that probable cause that evidence of a crime is likely to be found in a particular location is needed to obtain a search warrant of that location. A recording made at a particular location (if it was in fact made at the location, which we don't really know), does not provide probable cause that there are unlawful classified documents presently at that location. Whatever evidence the DoJ and FBI obtained that allowed them to obtain a search warrant of Mar-a-Lago last August, it was a helluva lot more than that.

Perhaps they have evidence that the document is not there? (Pure speculation: maybe he sold it to, say, Saudi Arabia?)

Or maybe he buried documents in Ivana Trump's grave (which is at the golf course) and the FBI is reluctant to exhume her?

Edited to note that Peter Strzok agrees with you.

Edited further to add Charlie Savage's reminder that this might be among the documents that Trump actually returned to the government.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

My question is, what else was on Martin's computer? Is this even the most significant thing? Or was it revealed to distract from something bigger?

[N.E. Brigand]

My question is, what else was on Martin's computer? Is this even the most significant thing? Or was it revealed to distract from something bigger?

Apparently Donald Trump knew he was being recorded, in fact he insisted on it.

And it's been known for a while that Margo Martin has testified in the special counsel investigation.

So it's possible that Trump himself could be a source for these stories.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Not only has Martin testified, she also provided a copy of the hard drive of her computer. With all those recordings.

[N.E. Brigand]

But then again, too few too mention. (Guardian: "Trump regretted not declassifying retained military document in recording.")

[Voronwë the Faithful]

From the Guardian article:

A Trump spokesperson said in a statement: “Leaks from radical partisans behind this political persecution are designed to inflame tensions and continue the media’s harassment of President Trump and his supporters. It’s just more proof that when it comes to President Trump, there are absolutely no depths to which they will not sink as they pursue their witch hunts.”

There's the answer to your questions no 1, above. Who benefits the most from this leak. Trump does, in part because it gives him something to complain about. Which is the only thing he is good at.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Edited further to add Charlie Savage's reminder that this might be among the documents that Trump actually returned to the government.

I have read that there is a document that Trump's attorney's described that was among those returned to NARA in January 2022 that seems to match the description of this document. But whether that is true or not I don't know. And even if it is true this recording what still have significance.

ETA: Here it is.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

If you want some light reading, here is a model prosecution memo prepared by the folks at Just Security. It is only 186 pages!

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Biden should be next, thought that will be more complicated because of the appointment of a separate special counsel.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Meanwhile, the plot thickens considerably. both NEB and previously noted that there was speculation that the Iran document referred to in the recording had previously been returned. However, now we have this news.



Needless to say, if the document had previously been returned, it doesn't seem like the DoJ would have needed to subpoena it. And the obvious question that is raised is, if it wasn't returned, and the Trump attorneys claim not to be able to find it, where is it. Is Trump hiding it from his attorneys? Did he simply misplace it? Or did he sell it the Saudis?

[N.E. Brigand]

The United States does not have an extradition treaty with Saudi Arabia.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

From your buddy Marcy.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Several commentators have speculated that they are meeting to vote out an indictment, but I am doubtful that that is the case.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

This could possibly be a sign that I am wrong.