Voronwë the Faithful wrote: ↑Wed Oct 05, 2022 2:44 amUnderstood, but just in terms of the text of LOTR, I think that passage is hard to square with the idea of the Orcs having a separate will, particularly since the passage implies that ALL the Orcs ran hither and tither mindless, etc., not just a few of them.
Ah, I see what you mean! I agree that the passage you quoted does not, in itself, lead one to draw the conclusions Tolkien did in
MT, but I think it can be reasonably read as describing only the response of the Orcs present at the Battle of the Morannon, if only because we've already seen Orcs display significant autonomy earlier in the book. Shagrat and Gorbag are the obvious example, but there's also the tracker and the soldier overheard by Frodo and Sam in
ROTK, VI 2. The latter accuses the tracker of engaging in "cursed rebel-talk," which is clearly proscribed but does not appear to be unprecedented. And even the soldier deflects blame to those "Higher Up" for issuing contradictory statements about what happened in the Tower of Cirith Ungol. (One report blamed "a pack of rebel Uruk-hai"; the fact that some Mordorian intelligence officers assumed this "must be" the case suggests to me that rebel Uruk-hai are a known quantity, unlike Hobbit Ringbearers.) The tracker goes so far as to insult the Nazgûl ("Shriekers"), adding "[t]hey’ve done in Number One [the Witch-king], I’ve heard, and I hope it’s true!"
None of this paints a picture of Orcs as ant-like entities without wills of their own, and that's without any mention of those Orcs who don't serve Sauron at all, like the Isengarders and the "Northerners" from Moria in the Orc-band that captured Merry and Pippin. Surely they, at the very least, were not rendered mindless and suicidal by Sauron's defeat, even if we consider
LOTR in isolation.
I was going to include an aside acknowledging this, but then my anxiety kicked in and I fretted that it might come across as patronizing, so I took it out. Perhaps that was a mistake after all.
Voronwë the Faithful wrote: ↑Wed Oct 05, 2022 2:44 amI agree with all of this, and I am continuing to refine my thoughts about the Orcs, thanks in large part to your sharing of your "subjective take"! I'll have more to say once I think it through more.
I look forward to hearing whatever you have to say!