Impeachment

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Apparently, this stunt has been planned for at least a week.

In the court of public opinion, can they possibly think that this will help them and the president with anyone other than their hardcore base? Do they care?

In related news, an attorney for the president told a three judge federal appeals court panel that if the president shot someone dead in the middle of Fifth Avenue, he could not be arrested or prosecuted for that.

[elengil]

In the court of public opinion, can they possibly think that this will help them and the president with anyone other than their hardcore base? Do they care?

I've been thinking about this for a while now and I wonder if some part is the appeal to the basic human need to rationalize information.

If they act so blatantly over-the-top, some people will stop seeing that it is that over-the-top because who would do that?? (Obviously no one is going to just blatantly break the rules, there must be something more going on) Others might believe that something else over-the-top must have necessarily prompted such an overblown reaction! (Are the Democrats really being that unreasonable that Republicans have to resort to this!?) Some will just feel burnt-out on the whole storm and not even care who is breaking rules anymore. (It's been 3 years, when will it end? I just want it to end!)

It may be less about needing to convince the public and more about honestly confusing and exhausting the public to the point that it stops even being important to a lot of people.

Was listening to a podcast on the demonstrations going on in HongKong, where one person they were interviewing was saying they just want the protest to be over. They like the freedoms they have, they accept that in '47 when China fully takes control they may lose them all, but they are so tired of the protests they are more willing to accept future loss of freedom than the current chaos.

I'm wondering if that's what the Republicans are banking on. That people will accept future harm for current "peace".

[Dave_LF]

Gawd. Maybe someone will block their entrance next time so we don't have to consider whether they need to be forceably removed.

They're probably hoping for that, so they can cry about how they're being pushed around. And that's Trumpism in a nutshell, isn't it?: The bully playing the victim card.

[Cerin]

All we know about the Schiff hearings is what is leaked to the press, because they are keeping the transcripts secret, even from Congress. Is that correct?

If correct, then we don't have a complete picture of what is going on, we only know what Schiff wants us to know.

I've seen conflicting stories about a timeline, that some still favor finishing by Thanksgiving, and some now saying Christmas (I don't know if that implies they couldn't possibly go on beyond Christmas). Voronwë, you said earlier that public hearings wouldn't have to repeat all the testimony that's been given thus far, but I wonder if the Dems would get away with merely offering transcripts, especially if the Repubs have no way of knowing they are accurate transcripts, given how tightly Schiff is controlling access and that he hasn't proven entirely truthful thus far.

I don't see what the disadvantage for the Dems would be in going to public hearings if their evidence is convincing. So I anticipate they will stay with the secret depositions until they believe the actual evidence would create the narrative they are currently creating with selective leaks.

But I'm wondering what would satisfy Pelosi. Is it enough for the House to impeach the Pres. with some Repub. votes if the evidence isn't overwhelming enough to guarantee removal in the Senate? I wonder if she wouldn't prefer to preserve the option of continuing impeachment inquiries through Trump's second term (should he win) than to finalize the process now, especially if it remains unlikely that he wouldn't be removed from office. Or perhaps they could start over with impeachment in the second term even if a trial resulted in acquittal in the first term? Or perhaps the true purpose of these proceedings is to guarantee, to the extent they can, that there is no second term.

[elengil]

Democrats and Republicans on the committees holding the hearings have the same information.
Republicans and Democrats not on the committees are both subject to having to wait for the information to be released.

This is not a Schiff vs. Congress issue (the House committees are part of Congress!) or a Democrats withholding from Republicans issue (Republicans are on these committees too!) this is who is on the committee (D's and R's) and who is not (D's and R's!) and those not on these particular committees are not entitled to crash the committee's hearings and make a stink about not having public access to potentially classified information before the hearings are done and redactions are made. You know, exactly like all the other reports that have to be reviewed and redacted before being released to the public to ensure classified information is not improperly shared.

especially if the Repubs have no way of knowing they are accurate transcripts, given how tightly Schiff is controlling access and that he hasn't proven entirely truthful thus far.

Note that it is not the Republicans on the committees who are throwing the fit about not having access. Are you saying that other Republicans can't trust the committee Republicans with verifying the accuracy of transcripts?

[RoseMorninStar]

It seems to me that fear of being hyperbolic keeps many people from calling things what they are. In this case, an imminent threat to the rule of law and democracy.

This.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

All we know about the Schiff hearings is what is leaked to the press, because they are keeping the transcripts secret, even from Congress. Is that correct?

Did you read the 15 page opening statement from Ambassador Taylor that I posted a link to?

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Laura Cooper's deposition did finally begin after a five hour delay. We'll see whether it gets interrupted again.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Just to correct something that I said earlier, from pictures that I have seen, it looks like there were at least two women among the GOP House members that stormed the deposition.

[yovargas]

The constant harping on how sneaky and devious those hateful Democrats are being for doing this in secret sure seems to be working on a good chunk of the populace. Even if it is nonsense it seems like it's decently successful for now.

[Cerin]

All we know about the Schiff hearings is what is leaked to the press, because they are keeping the transcripts secret, even from Congress. Is that correct?

Did you read the 15 page opening statement from Ambassador Taylor that I posted a link to?

Why would I read selectively leaked information from a secret hearing (run by someone so partisan he actually publicly used the word 'minions')? Why would anyone? I'm waiting for the evidence -- all of it -- to be made public.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

That's what I thought. Have a good day.

[yovargas]

Why would anyone?

I don't know why anyone would bother either considering the president already admitted to doing what he is being accused of.

[Dave_LF]

Trump's lawyer argues he is allowed to shoot people on Fifth Avenue

In other words, when the president does it, that means that it is not illegal.

On the plus side, this is the argument of a man who knows he's lost every other way.

[RoseMorninStar]

I don't know why anyone would bother either considering the president already admitted to doing what he is being accused of.

That's why they're focusing on the process and not the facts. They know how damning the facts are.

[River]

Why would anyone?

I don't know why anyone would bother either considering the president already admitted to doing what he is being accused of.

Well, to be fair, the President isn't known for honesty, so anything he says needs to be verified.

[Griffon64]

It's probably not even that in many cases, RoseMorninStar. I think what could be playing out is parts of Trump's Christian base is adhering to a Christian dogma that authority figures are appointed by God and imbued with authority from God, and therefore we earthly underlings are not to challenge their authority to do what they want, including sins and crimes. So they're doing God's work by resisting challenges to Trump.

Of course this is what Trump is so joyfully abusing. Even hearing facts straight out of his mouth is not as important to this group as their fact that he is an unassailable avatar of Godly power. So any logic, reasons, facts or processes that do not support their fact that he has God's authority to do what he wants will bounce off of or be resisted by supporters in this segment. It's distressing but it's true. As his lawyer says, he can't even be brought to task for murder in the eyes of these supporters.

What flattens me is that this same attitude to authority vaporizes when the authority figure is not Republican ( I did not notice Trump's base raising Barack Obama on this pedestal, to reach for an example ) but there you are. Somehow it works for them and they feel they walk in righteousness with it.

[elengil]

Well, to be fair, the President isn't known for honesty, so anything he says needs to be verified.

[off topic] When it was being reported that Sarah Huckabee Sanders was no longer press secretary, someone said they wouldn't believe it until she denied it herself.

[on topic]

I (may have mis-)understood there were three House committees holding hearings on impeachment issues? I have only been able to find two.

Either way, those two are

House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence
Democrats:
Adam Schiff, California, Chair
Jim Himes, Connecticut
Terri Sewell, Alabama
André Carson, Indiana
Jackie Speier, California
Mike Quigley, Illinois
Eric Swalwell, California
Joaquin Castro, Texas
Denny Heck, Washington
Sean Patrick Maloney, New York
Val Demings, Florida
Raja Krishnamoorthi, Illinois
Peter Welch, Vermont

Republicans:
Devin Nunes, California, Ranking Member
Mike Conaway, Texas
Mike Turner, Ohio
Brad Wenstrup, Ohio
Chris Stewart, Utah
Rick Crawford, Arkansas
Elise Stefanik, New York
Will Hurd, Texas
John Ratcliffe, Texas


House Committee on the Judiciary
Democrats:
Jerry Nadler, New York, Chairman
Zoe Lofgren, California
Sheila Jackson Lee, Texas
Steve Cohen, Tennessee
Hank Johnson, Georgia
Ted Deutch, Florida
Karen Bass, California
Cedric Richmond, Louisiana
Hakeem Jeffries, New York
David Cicilline, Rhode Island
Eric Swalwell, California
Ted Lieu, California
Jamie Raskin, Maryland
Pramila Jayapal, Washington
Val Demings, Florida
Lou Correa, California
Mary Gay Scanlon, Pennsylvania, Vice Chair
Sylvia Garcia, Texas
Joe Neguse, Colorado
Lucy McBath, Georgia
Greg Stanton, Arizona
Madeleine Dean, Pennsylvania
Debbie Mucarsel-Powell, Florida
Veronica Escobar, Texas

Republicans:
Doug Collins, Georgia, Ranking Member
Jim Sensenbrenner, Wisconsin
Steve Chabot, Ohio
Louie Gohmert, Texas
Jim Jordan, Ohio
Ken Buck, Colorado
John Ratcliffe, Texas
Martha Roby, Alabama
Matt Gaetz, Florida
Mike Johnson, Louisiana
Andy Biggs, Arizona
Tom McClintock, California
Debbie Lesko, Arizona
Guy Reschenthaler, Pennsylvania
Ben Cline, Virginia
Kelly Armstrong, North Dakota
Greg Steube, Florida

So far, I do not recall reading about one single Republican on either of these committees stating that they are being shut out of the process on their committees. It is difficult to take the other Republicans seriously who are complaining about being shut out of committees they are not part of.

[elengil]

It's probably not even that in many cases, RoseMorninStar. I think what could be playing out is parts of Trump's Christian base is adhering to a Christian dogma that authority figures are appointed by God and imbued with authority from God, and therefore we earthly underlings are not to challenge their authority to do what they want, including sins and crimes. So they're doing God's work by resisting challenges to Trump..

Pope Donald, eh?

[RoseMorninStar]

elengil, the House oversight committee (chaired by the late Elijah Cummings) would be the third.

Griffy, I am (sadly) all too aware of that faction of voters (Dominionists/Dominionism) and how easily they can be mislead/used/abused by 'religious' leaders for personal and political gain. It's really and truly horrible. They know exactly the right 'code words' to use to secure their 'heaven on earth'. There are warnings about this in the bible...