Too late?
Re: Should you punch a Nazi? The limits of tolerance
If my synagogue is the next one to be shot up or blown up with the rhetoric quoted verbatim from the President and the GOP leadership, I will make it my afterlife mission to haunt anyone who did not vote Democrat in 2016. And I won't be a friendly ghost.
If there was anything that depressed him more than his own cynicism, it was that quite often it still wasn't as cynical as real life.
Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!
Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!
Re: Should you punch a Nazi? The limits of tolerance
Read the whole thread, as an act of remembrance if nothing else.
https://twitter.com/andreapitzer/status ... 8956317696
https://twitter.com/andreapitzer/status ... 8956317696
You might know that today is the 80th anniversary of Kristallnacht, when vast state-endorsed terror against German and Austrian Jews was unleashed. I want to mention a few facts about the events of Kristallnacht that aren't very well remembered by the general public.
If there was anything that depressed him more than his own cynicism, it was that quite often it still wasn't as cynical as real life.
Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!
Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!
- RoseMorninStar
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Re: Should you punch a Nazi? The limits of tolerance
Man's inhumanity to man (and woman). It's awful to see the rise in hate. It's awful to watch the leader of this country encourage lies, misinformation, hate, bigotry, racism, and all sorts of other 'isms'. It's painful to see how easily people are swayed by propaganda that they cannot or chose not to see, especially people you thought you knew well. It's heartbreaking. Church, synagogue, mosque, school, concert, bar.. wherever, it's got to stop.
My heart is forever in the Shire.
Re: Should you punch a Nazi? The limits of tolerance
NPR
First degree murder, aggravated malicious wounding, malicious wounding and leaving the scene of an accident.James Alex Fields Jr., the man who drove his car through a crowd of counterprotestors at a white supremacist rally in Charlottesville, was found guilty of killing Heather Heyer and injuring dozens of others. https://t.co/na5f1K2IDc
If there was anything that depressed him more than his own cynicism, it was that quite often it still wasn't as cynical as real life.
Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!
Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!
- Primula Baggins
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Re: Should you punch a Nazi? The limits of tolerance
I hope he's never free again.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
- Voronwë the Faithful
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Re: Should you punch a Nazi? The limits of tolerance
Since he was convicted of First Degree Murder, I think that is a good bet.
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
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Re: Should you punch a Nazi? The limits of tolerance
Good.
I never know. Seems like people get off easy for pretty terrible crimes.
But I guess those mostly involve hurting someone, not heinously and willfully killing them.
I never know. Seems like people get off easy for pretty terrible crimes.
But I guess those mostly involve hurting someone, not heinously and willfully killing them.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
Re: Should you punch a Nazi? The limits of tolerance
Thought this belonged here, though I haven't yet had time to read the whole article:
https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/cu ... IgmgqMqxlY
https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/cu ... IgmgqMqxlY
When the night has been too lonely, and the road has been too long,
And you think that love is only for the lucky and the strong,
Just remember in the winter far beneath the bitter snows,
Lies the seed, that with the sun's love, in the spring becomes The Rose.
And you think that love is only for the lucky and the strong,
Just remember in the winter far beneath the bitter snows,
Lies the seed, that with the sun's love, in the spring becomes The Rose.
- RoseMorninStar
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Re: Should you punch a Nazi? The limits of tolerance
Well, that answers the question, doesn't it?
My heart is forever in the Shire.
- Dave_LF
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Re: Should you punch a Nazi? The limits of tolerance
They're missing out on a fantastic business opportunity; a lot of people would be willing to pay a lot more than a dollar.
- elengil
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Re: Should you punch a Nazi? The limits of tolerance
Well, it answers the question for legal repercussions in one jurisdiction.RoseMorninStar wrote:Well, that answers the question, doesn't it?
I don't think it addresses the moral aspect.
The dumbest thing I've ever bought
was a 2020 planner.
"Does anyone ever think about Denethor, the guy driven to madness by staying up late into the night alone in the dark staring at a flickering device he believed revealed unvarnished truth about the outside word, but which in fact showed mostly manipulated media created by a hostile power committed to portraying nothing but bad news framed in the worst possible way in order to sap hope, courage, and the will to go on? Seems like he's someone we should think about." - Dave_LF
was a 2020 planner.
"Does anyone ever think about Denethor, the guy driven to madness by staying up late into the night alone in the dark staring at a flickering device he believed revealed unvarnished truth about the outside word, but which in fact showed mostly manipulated media created by a hostile power committed to portraying nothing but bad news framed in the worst possible way in order to sap hope, courage, and the will to go on? Seems like he's someone we should think about." - Dave_LF
- RoseMorninStar
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Re: Should you punch a Nazi? The limits of tolerance
Maybe, maybe not, but there was some addressing of morality in the jury's decision, no? A $1 fine out of a potential 1 year in jail and $2,500 fine sends a message, as it was intended to do. Of course, the accused didn't just punch 'a Nazi' out of the blue, said Nazi was holding a press conference defending 'Unite the Right' in Charlottesville the day after Heyer had been killed which was viewed as trying to profit from tragedy. In his press conference, Jason Kessler blamed police & city officials (not white supremacists) for Heyer's death which was viewed as a provocation to the community.elengil wrote:Well, it answers the question for legal repercussions in one jurisdiction.RoseMorninStar wrote:Well, that answers the question, doesn't it?
I don't think it addresses the moral aspect.
That said, I am not advocating violence.
My heart is forever in the Shire.
- elengil
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Re: Should you punch a Nazi? The limits of tolerance
What I meant was one jurisdiction set the legal ramifications of the action. Sure, they likely used their own moral guidance to decide this, but I don't think it truly answers the question in generic terms, I think it tells us how one certain group chose to answer the question.
But then, there are plenty of groups who regularly choose "answers" which I disagree with, so I would not necessarily rely on others' choices to gauge my own morality.
But then, there are plenty of groups who regularly choose "answers" which I disagree with, so I would not necessarily rely on others' choices to gauge my own morality.
The dumbest thing I've ever bought
was a 2020 planner.
"Does anyone ever think about Denethor, the guy driven to madness by staying up late into the night alone in the dark staring at a flickering device he believed revealed unvarnished truth about the outside word, but which in fact showed mostly manipulated media created by a hostile power committed to portraying nothing but bad news framed in the worst possible way in order to sap hope, courage, and the will to go on? Seems like he's someone we should think about." - Dave_LF
was a 2020 planner.
"Does anyone ever think about Denethor, the guy driven to madness by staying up late into the night alone in the dark staring at a flickering device he believed revealed unvarnished truth about the outside word, but which in fact showed mostly manipulated media created by a hostile power committed to portraying nothing but bad news framed in the worst possible way in order to sap hope, courage, and the will to go on? Seems like he's someone we should think about." - Dave_LF
Re: Should you punch a Nazi? The limits of tolerance
'White power' symbol found after fire destroys social justice center that hosted Rosa Parks, MLK Jr.
Highlander's office burned one day after the Oklahoma Democratic Party headquarters and a Chickasaw Nation office were vandalized with racist graffiti. The offices were spray-painted with messages that included a swastika, "1488" — which is frequently used by white supremacists and refers to Adolf Hitler — and anti-Chinese slurs.
If there was anything that depressed him more than his own cynicism, it was that quite often it still wasn't as cynical as real life.
Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!
Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!
- elengil
- Cat-egorical Herbitual Creativi-Tea
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Re: Should you punch a Nazi? The limits of tolerance
The dumbest thing I've ever bought
was a 2020 planner.
"Does anyone ever think about Denethor, the guy driven to madness by staying up late into the night alone in the dark staring at a flickering device he believed revealed unvarnished truth about the outside word, but which in fact showed mostly manipulated media created by a hostile power committed to portraying nothing but bad news framed in the worst possible way in order to sap hope, courage, and the will to go on? Seems like he's someone we should think about." - Dave_LF
was a 2020 planner.
"Does anyone ever think about Denethor, the guy driven to madness by staying up late into the night alone in the dark staring at a flickering device he believed revealed unvarnished truth about the outside word, but which in fact showed mostly manipulated media created by a hostile power committed to portraying nothing but bad news framed in the worst possible way in order to sap hope, courage, and the will to go on? Seems like he's someone we should think about." - Dave_LF
- Túrin Turambar
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Re: Should you punch a Nazi? The limits of tolerance
This has been doing the rounds for a little while. It's worth making a comeback:
- Hachimitsu
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Re: Should you punch a Nazi? The limits of tolerance
Excellent video.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Re: Should you punch a Nazi? The limits of tolerance
Apparently you should sue a Nazi:
Jury finds Unite the Right defendants liable for more than $26 million in damages (CNN)
Unite the Right was the march in support of Confederate monuments in Charlottesville, Virginia in August 2017, with participants carrying torches and chanting, "Jews will not replace us." One supporter of the group killed a woman named Heather Heyer when he drove his car through a counter-protest the next day. The President of the United States claimed that the rally attendees included some "very fine people."
The jury hung on two of six claims (those alleging a conspiracy, as defined by federal laws, to commit racially motivated violence) but found for the plaintiffs on the other four claims, including a conspiracy as defined by Virginia state laws, engagement in racially-based violence, and specifically for the driver in deadly car attack. The details get rather complicated. The man who killed Ms. Heyer and injured others is on the hook for about half the total, but he's already in prison for the rest of his life. The rest of the damages are variously charged to people and entities who organized the rally, who are on the hook for $500,000 to $1,000,000 each.
Jury finds Unite the Right defendants liable for more than $26 million in damages (CNN)
Unite the Right was the march in support of Confederate monuments in Charlottesville, Virginia in August 2017, with participants carrying torches and chanting, "Jews will not replace us." One supporter of the group killed a woman named Heather Heyer when he drove his car through a counter-protest the next day. The President of the United States claimed that the rally attendees included some "very fine people."
The jury hung on two of six claims (those alleging a conspiracy, as defined by federal laws, to commit racially motivated violence) but found for the plaintiffs on the other four claims, including a conspiracy as defined by Virginia state laws, engagement in racially-based violence, and specifically for the driver in deadly car attack. The details get rather complicated. The man who killed Ms. Heyer and injured others is on the hook for about half the total, but he's already in prison for the rest of his life. The rest of the damages are variously charged to people and entities who organized the rally, who are on the hook for $500,000 to $1,000,000 each.
- Voronwë the Faithful
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Re: Should you punch a Nazi? The limits of tolerance
As your description makes clear, that headline is very misleading. Very little of that $26 million will actually be able to be collected by the plaintiffs, and the first two causes of action that the jury was unable to reach a verdict on were the most significant allegations, federal conspiracy to commit racially motivated violence and having knowledge of such a conspiracy and failing to prevent it, based on the Ku Klux Klan Act, a law first created in 1871 to protect emancipated Black people from racist attacks. Some of the Capital Police officers are relying on the same law in their civil lawsuit regarding the January 6 attack. The plaintiffs said they’d seek a retrial on those claims, but it remains to be seen if they really will do so. Besides the $13 million that James Fields was found liable for, and will obviously never pay from his lifetime jail cell, It will be difficult to collect from the other individuals found liable, and probably also the groups found liable, as it is.
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
Re: Should you punch a Nazi? The limits of tolerance
Well, a token victory is better than none at all...
When the night has been too lonely, and the road has been too long,
And you think that love is only for the lucky and the strong,
Just remember in the winter far beneath the bitter snows,
Lies the seed, that with the sun's love, in the spring becomes The Rose.
And you think that love is only for the lucky and the strong,
Just remember in the winter far beneath the bitter snows,
Lies the seed, that with the sun's love, in the spring becomes The Rose.