Health Care Reform

[Impenitent]

...Now Republicans are saying that Obama should be assassinated and Democrats are saying that Republicans should be arrested for the shutdown? WHY is this at all useful?

Um...who is saying Obama should be assassinated? If "Republicans" (ie card-carrying officials/representatives of the party) are saying this (which I find unbelievable), surely that is incitement, and illegal.

[anthriel]

Someone like Chris Christie, Governor of NJ, would be bound to get comments about his weight. While I don't think that is right, I also don't think it is the same.

No, it's not right. And it really is not the same.

[tinwë]

It's very difficult for someone like me, especially given what has happened in my state (North Carolina) to not get drawn into the escalating hyperbole surrounding all of this. I'll admit, treason is one of the nicer sentiments I hold toward the Republican Party these days. The rest cannot be said here. But I have truly never seen anything like this in my lifetime, especially here. North Carolina has had a proud tradition, for most of my lifetime, of following a Third Way type of politics - a sort progressive conservatism if you will. All of that has been flushed down the toilet over last two years, from a constitutional amendment that enshrines discrimination into law (Amendment 1 - our same sex marriage ban) to the most restrictive voting rights law in the country (so bad the Justice Department is suing our state), the most blatantly political gerrymandering of districts this state has ever seen, an anti-abortion law that makes Texas look downright liberal, an education bill that is an open assault on public education, cutting off unemployment benefits to hundreds of thousands of people, and of course lets not forget refusing to extend Medicaid benefits to our citizens. I'm sorry, but I cannot see how anyone of good conscience could support a party that is seemingly so hell-bent on ruining so much of what makes this a great nation (and what used to make NC a great state).

And to keep this on topic, apparently the NC state legislature passed a law forbidding the state Insurance commissioner from working with the federal government and insurance companies on the state's healthcare exchange, the result of which is that instead of healthy competition between insurance companies, we have one company to choose from - Blue Cross Blue Shield - and some of the highest rates in the country. To say I am frustrated would be the understatement of the century. To say how I really feel would get me banned from this board forever.

[elfshadow]

Um...who is saying Obama should be assassinated? If "Republicans" (ie card-carrying officials/representatives of the party) are saying this (which I find unbelievable), surely that is incitement, and illegal.

Well, I meant simply registered or voting Republicans (and libertarians, and independents, and some Democrats too, to be fair) calling for his assassination, not elected party officials. It is not uncommon for people to make statements like, "Obama just needs to be assassinated!" To be illegal, I think it must be an actual threat, not just a comment. Here are some Twitter comments, for example. These sort of "offhand" remarks were also made during the Bush years, but there was no social media to capture them.

Calls for assassination are a more rare example, but my point is that any overly dramatic response to a political move you don't like is completely unhelpful. As Voronwë rightly stated, trying to argue that the House GOP's refusal to vote on a clean budget amounts to treason is no different from their own argument that Obamacare is going to somehow destroy America. Both are unnecessary hyperbole.

[Cerin]

It is, actually, exactly the same kind of thinking that has led to this mess.

Obamacare is the biggest threat to freedom this country has ever seen! Any action is worth taking to stop it!


The GOP is committing treason!!


It is the same kind of dangerous overstatement.

And I think it is that kind of thinking -- the refusal to recognize difference in kind -- that has led us to this place. These people are not conducting business as usual. Their beliefs are extreme, their tactics are extreme, their goals are extreme and their determination to achieve them is extreme, yet they continue to operate under the guise of normalcy because this compulsion to posit equivalency on the political spectrum allows it.


treason -: the crime of trying to overthrow your country's government or of helping your country's enemies during war

[WampusCat]

tinwë is, unfortunately, entirely correct in his assessment of North Carolina's decline. It's shocking to see how quickly the state has turned around. And sobering to know that certain elements would like this to be the fate of the entire country.

[Primula Baggins]

To say I am frustrated would be the understatement of the century. To say how I really feel would get me banned from this board forever.

No. Provided you could say it with words of five letters or more, I think it would be fine.

I am so sorry. I live in a state where we're trying to make it work, and I still sit up at night worrying. I can't imagine what it's like where you know your elected representatives don't just want to screw you over but are dreaming of doing so.

It can't last. They will be left behind. The world will get better.

We'll get there. It used to be 1929, and look at where we are now.

[WampusCat]

Prim, they are not dreaming of it. They are doing it. That's what is so disheartening that even calm, gentle tinwë is in a rage.

[River]

Are the Moral Monday demonstrations still happening?

[WampusCat]

More have been promised, but I don't think there was one this week. The trials of the 940 people who were arrested have started, though.

[yovargas]

Here are some Twitter comments, for example. These sort of "offhand" remarks were also made during the Bush years, but there was no social media to capture them.

But there was during the last election - here's some awful lefties to counter-balance those awful righties:

http://www.buzzfeed.com/jwherrman/17-pe ... e-presiden


I don't know how it's possible to not end up entirely cynical about politics. It's why I ignore it 98% of the time. It's hard to see any hope of it getting better.

[Lalaith]

I don't know how it's possible to not end up entirely cynical about politics. It's why I ignore it 98% of the time. It's hard to see any hope of it getting better.

Precisely.

[Impenitent]

The consequence of that acquired cynicism is desertion of the field of battle and lack of involvement, which means that the only ones left are those who enjoy the dirty play and foster the cynicism...and then we all have to live with it.

The only way to change anything is to act. Lots of individuals acting creates change.

Meh. Not that I walk the walk either.

[Lalaith]

I still act by voting and contacting my elected officials when I think it's necessary. Beyond that, no thanks.

[Erunáme]

More have been promised, but I don't think there was one this week. The trials of the 940 people who were arrested have started, though.

940 people arrested? Over what? I only heard a bit about what happened in the Asheville area on Maddow's show regarding the gerrymandering.. but nothing more.

.
.

I too have to sometimes ignore politics as it's too infuriating. And we end up with this Plato quote:

Those who are too smart to engage in politics are punished by being governed by those who are dumber.

Now that isn't entirely true as there are most definitely some smart and compassionate people in the government (<3 Elizabeth Warren), but they really do seem like a small minority often.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

It is, actually, exactly the same kind of thinking that has led to this mess.

Obamacare is the biggest threat to freedom this country has ever seen! Any action is worth taking to stop it!


The GOP is committing treason!!


It is the same kind of dangerous overstatement.

And I think it is that kind of thinking -- the refusal to recognize difference in kind -- that has led us to this place. These people are not conducting business as usual. Their beliefs are extreme, their tactics are extreme, their goals are extreme and their determination to achieve them is extreme, yet they continue to operate under the guise of normalcy because this compulsion to posit equivalency on the political spectrum allows it.


treason -: the crime of trying to overthrow your country's government or of helping your country's enemies during war

Don't mistake me. I am not equate the actions of the two parties in the current crisis. I agree with you that the tactics that the GOP is using in shutting down the government and threatening to not raise the debt ceiling is not "business as usual" and as painful as the results are, I am glad that the president and the Democrats in Congress are refusing to given in to their demands.

However, it is legally, morally, and logically incorrect to call what they are doing treason. Worse, that kind of hyperbole is unhelpful. Call it what it is, not what it isn't. Political blackmail? Yes. Extortion? Yes. Damaging to the country? Yes. A terrible precedent? Absolutely? Treason? No way, not even close. Once you go there, you lose all credibility.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Meanwhile, the president has invited ALL of Congress to come meet with him. Yesterday he met with the entire Democratic party House caucus. Today, he invited the entire GOP House caucus. But John Boehner refused to allow his colleagues to come, instead only allowing the party leaders and select committee chairmen (17, I think, out of the 233 or so House members). None of whom are among the leaders of the movement to push for the shutdown, or potential default. The president expressed his disappoint, to know avail.

Why would the Speaker refuse to allow the President to talk to his whole delegation? Can anyone explain that?

[yovargas]

Why does the Speaker have the power to tell anybody they can't accept the President's invitation??

[Cerin]

It used to be 1929, and look at where we are now.

Heading straight back, as quickly as they can get us there.

While they toy with and obstruct the workings of the federal government, the real work is going on in state houses across the country.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Why does the Speaker have the power to tell anybody they can't accept the President's invitation??

That was my reaction, too, yov. It's like we have entered a house of mirrors. Boehner's excuse was that meeting with a smaller group was more likely to lead to solutions, but the problem with that is that the representatives that are driving this crisis will not be part of that group. Is he just afraid of losing further control? On the other hand, most of those representatives probably don't even want to meet with the president, they hate him so much.