Lasto beth Lammen - Is your religion nuts?
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Lidless
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I'm going to be lazy on this one. You all know my views here (hi vison!).
I'll let this clip sum up my views. Imagine me as Bill Maher.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKqqGX0D ... re=related
I'll let this clip sum up my views. Imagine me as Bill Maher.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKqqGX0D ... re=related
It's about time.
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RoseMorninStar
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aahahahahha...Lidless wrote:I'm going to be lazy on this one. You all know my views here (hi vison!).
I'll let this clip sum up my views. Imagine me as Bill Maher.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKqqGX0D ... re=related
Thanks for bringing this up, Alatar. I honestly hadn't thought much about my religious beliefs until 9/11. Yes, I was born and raised and IRC but that's what we all were. I was Catholic like I was short, freckled, and had blue eyes. Not a big deal in my life.
I started seriously praying when I realized that I had two brothers and 15 nephews in the NYPD and NYFD, plus more than 50 friends from high school, and I haven't really stopped since. Do I believe honestly in such things as transubstantiation? I can't make myself go there in most cases, although yes I believe that miracles happen. Do I believe in the power of the Trinity, the support of the Saints, and the Divine Power that takes a hand in our world? Yes, stubbornly and resolutely.
As for the Troubles, those wounds run deep and long and hard. My family got out of Ulster, but not before damage was done.
I started seriously praying when I realized that I had two brothers and 15 nephews in the NYPD and NYFD, plus more than 50 friends from high school, and I haven't really stopped since. Do I believe honestly in such things as transubstantiation? I can't make myself go there in most cases, although yes I believe that miracles happen. Do I believe in the power of the Trinity, the support of the Saints, and the Divine Power that takes a hand in our world? Yes, stubbornly and resolutely.
As for the Troubles, those wounds run deep and long and hard. My family got out of Ulster, but not before damage was done.
Bite off more than you can chew. Then, chew it. Ask for seconds.
There is at least one case where Transubstantion was real, and verified by observation, and still happening. In the Miracle of Lanciano the Host changed into flesh during the Mass. It is now in a glass case, undecayed and unwithered, on display.
Boy would I have loved to hear the first thing that priest said when he got into the vestry after Mass.
That said, I can't believe that in the normal world the transformation is more than spiritual. First, the "gross factor" holds me back. Second, if the Host becomes real flesh how could we take communion on Friday during Advent or Lent?
Boy would I have loved to hear the first thing that priest said when he got into the vestry after Mass.
That said, I can't believe that in the normal world the transformation is more than spiritual. First, the "gross factor" holds me back. Second, if the Host becomes real flesh how could we take communion on Friday during Advent or Lent?
Bite off more than you can chew. Then, chew it. Ask for seconds.
Maybe this is old hat to some, but recently someone pointed to the symbolism of placing the baby Jesus in a manger: that he should be food for his flock. This is an oft repeated theme, that Christ is water and food, that we are to eat, but for some reason the significance of the manger scene always escaped me. Beyond representing being born into poverty that is.
Following from the poverty thought, the local Occupy tent (a huge domed thing) came down recently, to be replaced by the community Nativity display. Oh the irony...
In keeping with the thread, my mind has strayed to such things as zombies and vampires at times. Not so much with the eating flesh, drinking blood of Communion service, but with many of the few other references to such, especially in times of apocalypse.
I learned today that there are at least 5 distinct, ostensibly Christian theories about creation. There is Young Earth Creationism, Evolutionary Creationism, Progressive Creationism, Gap Creationism, and Old Earth Creationism. Likely some of these are mixed and matched or expanded depending on a local congregation or church leader.
Upon hearing this it struck me, perhaps the reason the first chapter of Genesis seems so light on details is because the details aren't the point. Perhaps the only thing we are supposed to get from Genesis chapter 1 is that God is. (Then my mind jumped to the question, "I wonder if the phrase, 'the Devil is in the details,' comes from the debate we are usually confronted with?")
So I really don't know if my "religion" is nuts. But individual congregations and especially just plain individuals can certainly come across that way... saw an episode of Dexter last night and this Doomsday guy gained a couple followers who helped him kill a woman on a boat. I would suggest if they spent as much time in their Bible as they did the guy's books, they would have seen him coming a mile away. So often it is a case of someone being mislead or manipulated... plus the nuts get all the attention.
Following from the poverty thought, the local Occupy tent (a huge domed thing) came down recently, to be replaced by the community Nativity display. Oh the irony...
In keeping with the thread, my mind has strayed to such things as zombies and vampires at times. Not so much with the eating flesh, drinking blood of Communion service, but with many of the few other references to such, especially in times of apocalypse.
I learned today that there are at least 5 distinct, ostensibly Christian theories about creation. There is Young Earth Creationism, Evolutionary Creationism, Progressive Creationism, Gap Creationism, and Old Earth Creationism. Likely some of these are mixed and matched or expanded depending on a local congregation or church leader.
Upon hearing this it struck me, perhaps the reason the first chapter of Genesis seems so light on details is because the details aren't the point. Perhaps the only thing we are supposed to get from Genesis chapter 1 is that God is. (Then my mind jumped to the question, "I wonder if the phrase, 'the Devil is in the details,' comes from the debate we are usually confronted with?")
So I really don't know if my "religion" is nuts. But individual congregations and especially just plain individuals can certainly come across that way... saw an episode of Dexter last night and this Doomsday guy gained a couple followers who helped him kill a woman on a boat. I would suggest if they spent as much time in their Bible as they did the guy's books, they would have seen him coming a mile away. So often it is a case of someone being mislead or manipulated... plus the nuts get all the attention.
It always struck me that even if one accepts the most literal inerpretation of the Revelation - Torah being neatly dictated by God, word by word - one still has to remember who the God was talking to. It was a bunch of wandering desert tribes with probably not very high level of education in paleontology, astronomy and the rest. It was probably not God's intention to run a university there.Upon hearing this it struck me, perhaps the reason the first chapter of Genesis seems so light on details is because the details aren't the point. Perhaps the only thing we are supposed to get from Genesis chapter 1 is that God is. (Then my mind jumped to the question, "I wonder if the phrase, 'the Devil is in the details,' comes from the debate we are usually confronted with?")
P.S.: yes, I know the difference between desert and dessert. Usually.
Last edited by Frelga on Sun Dec 11, 2011 10:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
If there was anything that depressed him more than his own cynicism, it was that quite often it still wasn't as cynical as real life.
Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!
Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!
Nuts may yet be an apt description for some:
However a conservative approach to scripture is not the same thing as being Conservative politically. In my opinion, the Christian Right does a good job of turning people away from the faith -- and not just because they refuse to sugar-coat their favourite passages. I fail to see how preaching hate is the same thing as fulfilling "The Great Commission."
ETA: Further on this theme:
The article goes on to say that increasingly Christians are facing persecution (which I note that according to scripture has been true in the past, and should be true now and in future).'Real' Christian Churches in US Forced to Go Underground Soon?
“In the past three decades, or so, many of the mainline Christian churches have slipped away from their foundation on the Holy Scriptures and adopted more and more secular tenets and leftist, politically correct, philosophy until they have become only a shadow of the true followers of Christ,” he penned on Tuesday.
...
“Their pastors ‘preach’ feel good ‘sermonettes’ about the environment and things like ‘social justice.’ In my opinion, that is not the mission of a church that purports to follow Christ. In fact, Christ, Himself, spelled out the mission of the church in what we refer to as The Great Commission.”
The Great Commission stated in Matthew 28:18-20 reads: “Then Jesus came to them and said, ‘All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
Read more: http://global.christianpost.com/news/re ... oon-64235/
However a conservative approach to scripture is not the same thing as being Conservative politically. In my opinion, the Christian Right does a good job of turning people away from the faith -- and not just because they refuse to sugar-coat their favourite passages. I fail to see how preaching hate is the same thing as fulfilling "The Great Commission."
ETA: Further on this theme:
Newt Gingrich Says Arab Spring is 'Anti-Christian'
He cited Obama’s Middle East policy as the reason for anti-Christian sentiment in the Middle East.
“This is why the current strategy in the Middle East is such a total grotesque failure,” he said.
More here: http://global.christianpost.com/news/ne ... ian-59935/
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RoseMorninStar
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Primula Baggins
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Jesus was a Communist!
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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RoseMorninStar
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In Ezekiel 18, this description of a righteous man is repeated 3 times(!):
7 He does not oppress anyone,
but returns what he took in pledge for a loan.
He does not commit robbery
but gives his food to the hungry
and provides clothing for the naked.
8 He does not lend to them at interest
or take a profit from them.
He withholds his hand from doing wrong
and judges fairly between two parties.
7 He does not oppress anyone,
but returns what he took in pledge for a loan.
He does not commit robbery
but gives his food to the hungry
and provides clothing for the naked.
8 He does not lend to them at interest
or take a profit from them.
He withholds his hand from doing wrong
and judges fairly between two parties.
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Túrin Turambar
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To be honest, I think this is something tha Christians on both sides of politics do. At the end of the day, you can find scriptural support for pretty much any political position in the New Testament alone, let alone the Old. And I've never seen to Christian Left go all that much softer on the Right than the Right goes on the Left.
That is something to be wary of. But I have yet to find the Christian Left. When I do I will try to pay close attention.Lord_Morningstar wrote:To be honest, I think this is something tha Christians on both sides of politics do. At the end of the day, you can find scriptural support for pretty much any political position in the New Testament alone, let alone the Old. And I've never seen to Christian Left go all that much softer on the Right than the Right goes on the Left.
I do not want to live in a world where pointing to the areas the Christian Right gets it wrong makes you a part of the [elusive] Christian Left.
Speaking mainly of Christianity here, but also of other religions, trying to adhere to the dictates of a political label even as they contradict the Bible, is pretty close to being nuts. (Which is what prompted Al to start this thread IIRC.)
Truth is neither "Left" nor "Right." Exposing falsehoods among Rightists or Leftists should not automatically gain you the label in opposition to the false group. Believing it should or does is also "nuts." Being Left politically is not necessarily the opposite of being politically Right. One group or the other might have more or less truth on their side, but on those points they cease to be Left or Right, imho.
In other words, putting your political leanings before your faith is nuts.
Well said, Sir.
LM, I am curious if you can find scriptural support either in the Torah or Christian Gospels or indeed any holy book of any faith that supports focus on personal enrichment at the expense of the less fortunate. Jesus was 99%.
I note that the passage Gingrich quotes refers to "teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you," which presumably includes all that politically correct stuff about helping the poor and loving your neighbor.
In fact I distinctly remember Jesus instructing an earnest young man that what he really ought to do is give away all his possessions (and I believe it was give away, not burn, for instance. Judaism refers to helping the poor as tzedaka, justice, and sets specific guidelines for the minimum required of anyone. (And I went to look it up, and got absorbed in the rules about forgotten sheafs and defective clusters of grapes and other things specifically set aside for the poor).
It's easy to say, the point of my religion is to go and proselytize. Too easy, from a person in the position of political power. It's much harder to live up to the more challenging percepts of one's faith, whatever it is, with hope that one's example inspires others or at least makes their lives better.
LM, I am curious if you can find scriptural support either in the Torah or Christian Gospels or indeed any holy book of any faith that supports focus on personal enrichment at the expense of the less fortunate. Jesus was 99%.
I note that the passage Gingrich quotes refers to "teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you," which presumably includes all that politically correct stuff about helping the poor and loving your neighbor.
In fact I distinctly remember Jesus instructing an earnest young man that what he really ought to do is give away all his possessions (and I believe it was give away, not burn, for instance. Judaism refers to helping the poor as tzedaka, justice, and sets specific guidelines for the minimum required of anyone. (And I went to look it up, and got absorbed in the rules about forgotten sheafs and defective clusters of grapes and other things specifically set aside for the poor).
It's easy to say, the point of my religion is to go and proselytize. Too easy, from a person in the position of political power. It's much harder to live up to the more challenging percepts of one's faith, whatever it is, with hope that one's example inspires others or at least makes their lives better.
If there was anything that depressed him more than his own cynicism, it was that quite often it still wasn't as cynical as real life.
Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!
Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!
Well said, also, Frelga.It's easy to say, the point of my religion is to go and proselytize. Too easy, from a person in the position of political power. It's much harder to live up to the more challenging percepts of one's faith, whatever it is, with hope that one's example inspires others or at least makes their lives better.
Pastors aren't allowed to endorse political candidates from the pulpit, and I'm glad for that. But I sure have been in churches where they came as close as possible. There's just too much focus on politics in some churches. (Sad to say, many of those churches fall within my denomination and those closely associated with it. My particular church, however, steers away from this at the leadership level. We certainly have individuals who are outspoken and caught up in politics. Interestingly enough, they don't seem to be too caught up in social justice.)
And that's where I think the focus of the church ought to be. Well, the church ought to be focused on what God has told us to be focused on: sharing the Gospel (that includes with words as well as with good works), caring for the helpless and the less fortunate, worshiping God, building community with others, growing in faith and helping others to grow in faith, standing up for truth in a loving way, etc.
I guess it's that last one that leaves a lot of room for interpretation.
