The Art of Rhetoric, Debate, Logical Fallacies, etc

For discussion of philosophy, religion, spirituality, or any topic that posters wish to approach from a spiritual or religious perspective.
User avatar
elengil
Cat-egorical Herbitual Creativi-Tea
Posts: 4790
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:45 pm
Location: Small drinking village with a severe fishing problem

Re: The Art of Rhetoric, Debate, Logical Fallacies, etc

Post by elengil »

It looks as if all my previous video links have stopped working? (or is it only for me)

So, here's a new one to add to the thread.

The dumbest thing I've ever bought
was a 2020 planner.

"Does anyone ever think about Denethor, the guy driven to madness by staying up late into the night alone in the dark staring at a flickering device he believed revealed unvarnished truth about the outside word, but which in fact showed mostly manipulated media created by a hostile power committed to portraying nothing but bad news framed in the worst possible way in order to sap hope, courage, and the will to go on? Seems like he's someone we should think about." - Dave_LF
Beorhtnoth
Posts: 298
Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2020 6:13 pm

Re: The Art of Rhetoric, Debate, Logical Fallacies, etc

Post by Beorhtnoth »

I have never encountered Markham Nolan before. Does he provide instructions on how to identify disinformation, misinformation and falsehoods broadcast/published by established media organisations? Does he explore why compromised legacy media should be avoided in favour of irreverent, unbeholden new media, and how we should wean ourselves off state propaganda?

To understand how the establishment media manipulates its viewers, who better than Chomsky? :)

In a society built on deceit, telling truth is a seditious act
User avatar
Frelga
Meanwhile...
Posts: 18509
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:31 pm
Location: Home, where else

Re: The Art of Rhetoric, Debate, Logical Fallacies, etc

Post by Frelga »

I don't know if this fits perfectly here, but hopefully it doesn't NOT fit.

I have recently formalized my opinion on discussions of every kind as "the big picture is simple, the details are complicated." A productive discussion should pay a balanced amount of attention to both, but the big picture should never be completely ignored.

Corollary - it's a red flag when someone enters a discussion and focuses entirely on minor details, the semantics, the hypotheticals. In my experience it means at best that that they do not understand the subject well enough to grasp the big picture, and at worst, that they are not participating in good faith.
His philosophy was a mixture of three famous schools -- the Cynics, the Stoics and the Epicureans -- and summed up all three of them in his famous phrase, 'You can't trust any bugger further than you can throw him, and there's nothing you can do about it, so let's have a drink."

Terry Pratchett, Small Gods
User avatar
Inanna
Meetu's little sister
Posts: 14771
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 5:03 pm

Re: The Art of Rhetoric, Debate, Logical Fallacies, etc

Post by Inanna »

Doesn’t the reverse also hold true? I feel
like that about anecdotal, personal examples. they can pack detail, they enable story-telling, but without the big picture you can create a false narrative.
'You just said "your getting shorter": you've obviously been drinking too much ent-draught and not enough Prim's.' - Jude
User avatar
Frelga
Meanwhile...
Posts: 18509
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:31 pm
Location: Home, where else

Re: The Art of Rhetoric, Debate, Logical Fallacies, etc

Post by Frelga »

Inanna wrote:Doesn’t the reverse also hold true? I feel
like that about anecdotal, personal examples. they can pack detail, they enable story-telling, but without the big picture you can create a false narrative.
That's not a reverse, that's case in point. Image
His philosophy was a mixture of three famous schools -- the Cynics, the Stoics and the Epicureans -- and summed up all three of them in his famous phrase, 'You can't trust any bugger further than you can throw him, and there's nothing you can do about it, so let's have a drink."

Terry Pratchett, Small Gods
User avatar
Inanna
Meetu's little sister
Posts: 14771
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 5:03 pm

Re: The Art of Rhetoric, Debate, Logical Fallacies, etc

Post by Inanna »

argh. I had meant to write an example for the reverse. I think.
'You just said "your getting shorter": you've obviously been drinking too much ent-draught and not enough Prim's.' - Jude
Beorhtnoth
Posts: 298
Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2020 6:13 pm

Re: The Art of Rhetoric, Debate, Logical Fallacies, etc

Post by Beorhtnoth »

Frelga wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 10:21 pm Corollary - it's a red flag when someone enters a discussion and focuses entirely on minor details, the semantics, the hypotheticals. In my experience it means at best that that they do not understand the subject well enough to grasp the big picture, and at worst, that they are not participating in good faith.
This cannot be overstated. Focusing on the minutiae to divert from the bigger picture is a fundamental obscurantist tactic.

And the most successful.
In a society built on deceit, telling truth is a seditious act
User avatar
Frelga
Meanwhile...
Posts: 18509
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:31 pm
Location: Home, where else

Re: The Art of Rhetoric, Debate, Logical Fallacies, etc

Post by Frelga »

Inanna wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 10:35 pm argh. I had meant to write an example for the reverse. I think.
Sure, we can't ignore the complexity of the detail.

For example - the big picture when it comes to discussing Middle-earth is that it is a work of fiction created by one man whose ideas evolved over time, and as such some questions don't have definitive answers or have contradictory answers.

There is a lot of delightful discussion to be had about the details of the fictional world, even from an entirely in-story perspective. But forgetting the big picture entirely just leads to a lot of pointless shouting.
His philosophy was a mixture of three famous schools -- the Cynics, the Stoics and the Epicureans -- and summed up all three of them in his famous phrase, 'You can't trust any bugger further than you can throw him, and there's nothing you can do about it, so let's have a drink."

Terry Pratchett, Small Gods
Beorhtnoth
Posts: 298
Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2020 6:13 pm

Re: The Art of Rhetoric, Debate, Logical Fallacies, etc

Post by Beorhtnoth »

Frelga wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 10:50 pm
For example - the big picture when it comes to discussing Middle-earth is that it is a work of fiction created by one man whose ideas evolved over time, and as such some questions don't have definitive answers or have contradictory answers.
Ah, but that "big picture" isn't necessarily THE "big picture". Tolkien's cosmogenesis borrowed from the Kalevala, Prose Edda etc.
In a society built on deceit, telling truth is a seditious act
User avatar
Voronwë the Faithful
1000%
Posts: 38621
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:41 am
Contact:

Re: The Art of Rhetoric, Debate, Logical Fallacies, etc

Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

My friend N.E.B. pointed this link out to me, and I thought it might be worth sharing here.

The Differences Between Dialogue and Debate.
"Among the tales of sorrow there are yet some in which amid weeping there is joy and under the shadow of death light that endures."
Post Reply