News from Bree and other random discussions

[Frelga]

Here's a cool and possibly relevant thread.

[elengil]

THAT IS SO COOL!!!

[RoseMorninStar]

Did you put up a link to that? I wasn't able to link (and I'm not on Twitter) but that is fascinating! Wikipedia article on Ring of Silvaianus and connection to Tolkien/The One Ring.

[Frelga]

Rose, clicking on the tweet preview should take your to the tweet in browser. You don't have to use Twitter otherwise.

[Dave_LF]

That is very cool, and I'm a bit annoyed that they didn't share Tolkien's verdict on the matter, but I also have to note: does Venus have a cat head? Because it looks like she has a cat head.

[elengil]

At first I wondered why they made her hair so short. Then, after looking for a bit, I thought maybe a kind of feathered headdress? Now I'm leaning toward perhaps a crown or halo kind of thing. Never seen something quite like it in Roman imagery...

[Dave_LF]

Yeah, dismissing the "Venus was actually Kilrathi" theory for a moment, it looks like she might be wearing a feather-crested circlet with an mask that covers the eyes and nose?

[Inanna]

I REALLY want to see how that impression works out.

[elengil]

Bear in mind not every carver was necessarily good at faces, it could have just been a relatively cheap ring - i.e. the best the owner could afford but just not very well done.

[Frelga]

That's true, it's just that when a modern Western person hears Venus, the image that comes to mind is probably less Sonic the Hedgehog and more Playboy.

[elengil]

Agreed, but I think that really is a modern bias.

Like in the SCA we often forget about things like... some scribes weren't all that good at drawing, but that didn't mean they didn't do it anyway. So we get really self conscious about our illuminations when really there were some periods when the quality really suffered. Sadly, after plague you often lost some of the very skilled craftsman and got whoever was left alive.

Or in the case of the ring, it could have been that the owner got the cheap knock-off instead of a high-skilled, crafted item.

[RoseMorninStar]

A relatively modern bias. The truly ancient Venus figure is of a hugely pregnant or obese woman with no face with braided hair all the way around the head. I agree that the figure on the ring has a headdress. Not sure what is going on with the face. Perhaps it wasn't intended to represent a living person and therefore is intentionally stylized to more appropriately (in their eyes) represent a goddess.

[elengil]

A relatively modern bias. The truly ancient Venus figure is of a hugely pregnant or obese woman with no face with braided hair all the way around the head. I agree that the figure on the ring has a headdress. Not sure what is going on with the face. Perhaps it wasn't intended to represent a living person and therefore is intentionally stylized to more appropriately (in their eyes) represent a goddess.

But is that meant to actually be the Roman goddess Venus or is that the name we have modernly ascribed to such (presumed) goddess figurines found from that time? Do we have any actual evidence that goddess was actually called Venus by those who made those figures?

[RoseMorninStar]

A relatively modern bias. The truly ancient Venus figure is of a hugely pregnant or obese woman with no face with braided hair all the way around the head. I agree that the figure on the ring has a headdress. Not sure what is going on with the face. Perhaps it wasn't intended to represent a living person and therefore is intentionally stylized to more appropriately (in their eyes) represent a goddess.

But is that meant to actually be the Roman goddess Venus or is that the name we have modernly ascribed to such (presumed) goddess figurines found from that time? Do we have any actual evidence that goddess was actually called Venus by those who made those figures?

Obviously metaphorical as it is unknown with what the name/intended function of the earliest figures are since they are ancient/paleolithic, so that is certainly a modern attribution. In spirit? It's impossible to say with certainty. The Roman Goddess is much, much later. Britannica has an interesting article on the history of Venus.

[elengil]

The carving might also suffer from modern beauty bias, too. Perhaps certain features considered desirable or that had some kind of positive or important association were exaggerated.

[Jude]

Just for fun, here's a trivia question for you all: Which Tolkien character died four times?

(maybe more; I can think of four times off the top of my head)

[Alatar]

Actually died or appeared to die?

[Jude]

Actually died. In that his or her body became non-functional and "gave up the ghost".

[Alatar]

I'm guessing Beren?

[Jude]

That's not the one I had in mind...