2016 United States Election

[yovargas]

I am so, so sorry, Inanna.

[RoseMorninStar]

*Innana Oh so sorry. Let him know we are not all like that.

But deporting illegal immigrants isn’t bigotry. The Obama administration has deported about two million illegal immigrants. Do we call him a bigot because of that?

People shouldn't believe he is racist because he wants to deport illegal immigrants. I never said that and it is disingenuous to imply I have. Just a few posts ago I stated that I could understand people being upset by illegal immigrants.

Trump has made many, many racist and bigoted statements about people *who are US citizens*. TWO Judges, for example. Claiming a Judge could not do his job because they were of Mexican heritage. The Justice department sued his company -twice- for not renting to black people. The managers at his casino's were ordered to remove all black dealers and ugly women from the floor when he was on the premises.

A few other comments made by Trump:

"And isn’t it funny. I’ve got black accountants at Trump Castle and Trump Plaza. Black guys counting my money! I hate it,” O’Donnell recalled Trump saying. “The only kind of people I want counting my money are short guys that wear yarmulkes every day.”

“I think the guy is lazy,” Trump said of a black employee, according to O’Donnell. “And it’s probably not his fault because laziness is a trait in blacks. It really is, I believe that. It’s not anything they can control.”

Dehumanizing people by lumping them into a category based on sex, color, race, & creed and assigning them traits across the board is the definition of a racist, a xenophobe. The birther conspiracy which he relentlessly egged on is one such example. He had to de-legitimatize Obama because he was black.

As for 'perception' most bullies don't perceive themselves as bullies. Many sexual predators don't consider themselves to be molesters. But they don't get to decide. Their supporters don't get to decide. Their victims do. (I am thinking, for example of instances of priest/sex abuse, etc..) If they/their supporters 'don't see the problem' then they are part of the problem.

[Impenitent]

KKK planned victory parade in North Carolina is another sign that all those groups kept suppressed by the values of the former majority now assume that the leash is off.
And I am of the same view as Nin that it does no good to call him names, or labeling him and those who support him as Other. Othering, stereotyping, leads to and feeds lack of understanding and fear, and that does nothing for solving the problems.

ETA crossposted with Rose.

Posting on phone via Tapatalk

[Inanna]

Thanks, folks. He's fine. I'm fine.

Rose, he knows. he was born in NJ, worked for the 2012 Obama campaign & is now in CA, working for Google. He epitomizes the American dream, doing much better than his Immigrant parents.

And therein lies the problem...,


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[axordil]

But consider Wisconsin -- there were approximately 140k fewer votes cast in 2016 compared to 2012

Wisconsin had something else going on:
http://www.jsonline.com/story/news/loca ... /93607154/

And it's always nice to see I'm not alone:
http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-p ... story.html

[Cerin]

Rose, I didn't mean to suggest that you had implied anything related to immigration. I was just grabbing at the first example that came to my mind, of things people seem to feel indicate bigotry on Trump's part. Sometimes I wonder if people have simply lumped every nasty aspect of Trump's personality and behavior together and labeled it 'bigotry' for convenience sake.

I would look at actual quotes from Trump, in a discussion of possible alternate interpretations of things he's said, but I'm not interested in hearsay.

Dehumanizing people by lumping them into a category based on sex, color, race, & creed and assigning them traits across the board is the definition of a racist, a xenophobe.

I agree with that, but I'm not aware of Trump doing this sort of thing. A quote (from Trump himself) would be useful.

The birther conspiracy which he relentlessly egged on is one such example. He had to de-legitimatize Obama because he was black.

I just don't think you can make that assumption (that he was trying to de-legitimize Obama because Obama is black). I thought he was doing it to get attention and attract the support of that segment of the right wing.

As for 'perception' most bullies don't perceive themselves as bullies. Many sexual predators don't consider themselves to be molesters. But they don't get to decide. Their supporters don't get to decide. Their victims do. (I am thinking, for example of instances of priest/sex abuse, etc..) If they/their supporters 'don't see the problem' then they are part of the problem.

No, of course the question of whether someone is a sexual predator isn't a matter of an observer's perception, but of a person's actions and of law. It isn't a matter of interpretation, the way the example you gave above is.

[Cerin]

eborr, I wanted to thank you for sharing your perspective. I enjoyed reading your post and thought it was well stated (but then, I agree with what you say). Nin, your insights are always so valuable, as well.

In reference to Maryland's move to honor the popular vote, there is a movement called National Popular Vote that's been afoot for several years, working on getting states to pass a national popular vote bill. They're more than halfway to the number of states needed, according to their website.

http://www.nationalpopularvote.com/

Maybe the horrors of a Trump presidency will be the final push needed to finally get rid of the electoral college.

[eborr]

I don't no why anyone is so surprised that there have been an increase in racism post a Trump election, the same phenomena happened post brexit.

The problem is this - that once you start to legitimise racism by coming out with statements that even if they are not inherently or intentionally racist can be seen as such.

In Britain this has been presented as an anti-immigration wrapper, but you don't need to scratch the anti-immigration proponents too hard before the stench of bigotry is exposed.

Of course the big joke is that we are all immigrants, or at least are fore-fathers were, and in the US most of that immigration occurred within the last hundred and fifty years.

Turning to people who support and vote for bigots, are we right to castigate them - A few years ago the British National Party, who were by their own admission a right wing pro-Nationalist party caused concern by winning local government seats in some of the most depressed towns in the north of England. I won't attempt to quote literally so you are going to have to trust me on this one, but people who supported them rarely claimed they did so because of the anti-immigration policies, rather that they talked to people about the things that concerned them. They talked about jobs, cost of living,pensions, access to health care, why local services, such as public transport were becoming un-affordable.

The other political parties ignored them, concentrating on shall we say metropolitan issues which simply were not that important to their lives.

If you are struggling to put food on the table, or to get an appointment with the doctor, or you don't have the bus fare to get to your local food bank, then urban renewal, or green houses gases, or even atrocities going on else where don't count for much

[Nin]

Sorry Inanna, I had not seen yesterday. I am very sorry for your cousin.

[yovargas]

I don't no why anyone is so surprised that there have been an increase in racism post a Trump election, the same phenomena happened post brexit.

I doubt many people here are very surprised, just saddened.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I'm not convinced that there is that much of an increase. It could just as easily be that it is being reported more. There already was a lot of racism going on behind the scenes not being reported.

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[yovargas]

This is not normal.

[Cenedril_Gildinaur]

I like the use of the word "and" to convey that the two symptoms are happening in perhaps equal proportion.

[Frelga]

I'm not convinced that there is that much of an increase. It could just as easily be that it is being reported more. There already was a lot of racism going on behind the scenes not being reported.

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While there have always been a lot of racism, what's new is the perpetrators specifically saying "now that Trump is president". And I've seen dozens report like that, even through a very limited number of people I follow online. And it's happening everywhere, even in Berkeley.

It's nice to hope that things aren't that bad as they seem, but it's not productive. Especially when things are actually much worse.

Eta to eborr: I am not surprised. But I am disappointed.

Eta 2: just now on Twitter via John Scalzi who said he knows the poster personally
https://twitter.com/kumailn/status/797470238614831104

[Cerin]

I'm thinking things are more hopeful than they seem right now. Trump defeated would have been immortalized, along with his rhetoric. But people of good will who voted for Trump will soon see he is a fraud (as will people of ill will who voted for him, and what on earth will that look like?). He and his method will be thoroughly discredited and become just an ugly blot on the historical record. Meanwhile, those of good will whose hopes are dashed by Trump will have a place to go in a new non-corporate Democratic Party, now that defeat has broken the Clintons' stranglehold on the party, and only the obstinately obtuse won't concede that neo-liberalism has been proven a failure.

??

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I'm not convinced that there is that much of an increase. It could just as easily be that it is being reported more. There already was a lot of racism going on behind the scenes not being reported.

Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk

While there have always been a lot of racism, what's new is the perpetrators specifically saying "now that Trump is president". And I've seen dozens report like that, even through a very limited number of people I follow online. And it's happening everywhere, even in Berkeley.

It's nice to hope that things aren't that bad as they seem, but it's not productive. Especially when things are actually much worse.

You misunderstand me. I'm not saying that things aren't as bad as they seem. I'm saying that things were much worse before that most (white) people realized. Most of my black friends don't think that things are any worse now than they were a week ago. They think it was bad then and it is still bad.

[Frelga]

Well. That $#!+ is so bad that arguing whether or not it's gotten worse is as pointless as... something really pointless, insert your own witty comparison. But we are also seeing increased attacks on Muslims, Indians, Asians, Latinos and all sorts of immigrants, in places where they have never experiences racist attacks before.

[RoseMorninStar]

Something I greatly respected John McCain for when he was running for president is when angry people stood up at his town hall meetings and stated that they were afraid of Obama/his being a Muslim, etc... and McCain so bravely and firmly denied such notions and calmed the crowd when he could have gone for a Trump-like rally cry and wound up the crowd. McCain did the decent thing. He did what was good for our country, not what was good for his personal adulation, glory, or votes. I was so proud of him. That is what real leaders do.

[eborr]

I guess I didn't express myself as clearly as I had intended - the "why are we surprised" was aimed at the response that the media were reporting, and yes I agree there are pocket of racism in most societies, what disturbs me is a legitimisation of it.

Maybe I can give a couple of examples of this, I was looking t an old TV show(Knowing Me, Knowing You) which is a spoof chat show. The host of the show is played as someone who is gauche, and superficial, and skit was about him inviting an elderly athlete who was racist, and the humour was founded on his embarrassment, and failure to rain he in. I have to say that some of the remarks she was making, deemed unacceptable in the 1990's - would now not be out of place in the media.

A second strand, and this I find even more worrying, was a comment by some labour politicians saying that some of their constituents had legitimate grievances over immigration. That to me is deeply depressing, they should not be attacking the immigrants, most of whom pay tax and national insurance, but the Tory Government which is under-funding local services.

But there are some ray's of hope. The Danish company Lego, has announced it is with-drawing from a marketing campaign it had with the Daily Mail,

Lego has announced its promotional giveaways with the Daily Mail have ended - amid a campaign to stop firms advertising with some newspapers over "divisive" coverage of migrants.

BBC

Also the well known former soccer player and TV pundit Gary Lineker, who has been the "face" of Walkers Crisps has publicly called on the company to cease from advertising in the Sun

[Túrin Turambar]

I'm thinking things are more hopeful than they seem right now. Trump defeated would have been immortalized, along with his rhetoric. But people of good will who voted for Trump will soon see he is a fraud (as will people of ill will who voted for him, and what on earth will that look like?). He and his method will be thoroughly discredited and become just an ugly blot on the historical record. Meanwhile, those of good will whose hopes are dashed by Trump will have a place to go in a new non-corporate Democratic Party, now that defeat has broken the Clintons' stranglehold on the party, and only the obstinately obtuse won't concede that neo-liberalism has been proven a failure.

??

I'm a lot more hopeful as well, even though I'm a supporter of neo-liberal economics. Trump at the moment is basically a wild card; he could do anything or nothing in office. But the machinery of government will continue to function around him. In the meantime, the sorts of policies he has advocated will now actually need to be tested in reality. If they succeed, great, and I'll admit that I was wrong about free trade and I'll know better when I go to vote for elections in my country in the future. If they fail, then this sort of populist insurgency type candidacy will have been discredited and won't re-appear for a long time.

This is the fourth U.S. presidential election I've followed in detail, and I'm now used to the manic rhetoric and predictions of doom. When Bush was re-elected, many left-wing people (including on this family of boards) were predicting that America was destroyed and democracy had failed, and this was the beginning of the slide into some sort of totalitarianism. The same thing happened from the other side when Obama was elected in 2008, and in particular, when he was re-elected in 2012. In each case, going into the election pundits were claiming that this was the single most important election in living memory and it represented some sort of cross-roads where there was no turning back from the wrong path.

Of course, this time it could be different and America could have actually elected someone who is uniquely bad and future history books will record his presidency as the pivotal event in America's decline and fall. But I'd be less-surprised if things simply muddled along until 2020 when everyone starts saying that this is the pivotal election, and everyone on the right-wing websites starts explaining how the Democratic nominee is a crypto-communist who has planned the destruction of America for decades, and everyone on the left-wing websites starts writing long posts comparing the Republican nominee (who I think won't be Trump) to Mussolini.