The Shirley Sherrod Situation

[River]

How are we even supposed to talk about it then? Because silence doesn't make it go away...

[JewelSong]

I don't believe that is at all the definition of racism.

From Merriam-Webster:
Main Entry: rac·ism
Pronunciation: \ˈrā-ˌsi-zəm also -ˌshi-\
Function: noun
Date: 1933

1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race

You might not LIKE this definition, but it IS the prevailing definition of racism.

IMHO it does not good to say black and white people need to get along better, because that implies there is some way the two are at odds.

Do you think they are not at odds?

The only way eliminate racism is to remove "black and white" from the equation.

Difficult to do when race IS still part of the equation. Nice to hope/pray/wish that it wasn't. Advocating for better communication and cooperation between different cultures and races is hardly a negative thing, IMHO. Ignoring it will not make it go away. This seems to be what you are saying.

[halplm]

So does that make anybody who points out that racism still exists (or perhaps any form of bigotry) a racist in your eyes?

No.

[halplm]

How are we even supposed to talk about it then? Because silence doesn't make it go away...

There's a difference between talking about it, and using it. I'm not saying ignore it, but look past it.

[halplm]

I don't believe that is at all the definition of racism.

From Merriam-Webster:
Main Entry: rac·ism
Pronunciation: \ˈrā-ˌsi-zəm also -ˌshi-\
Function: noun
Date: 1933

1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race

You might not LIKE this definition, but it IS the prevailing definition of racism.

I would argue that's not even remotely the definition used by almost everyone.

IMHO it does not good to say black and white people need to get along better, because that implies there is some way the two are at odds.

Do you think they are not at odds?

Some are, obviously, and they will be until they decide to stop. The more their voices are given power the longer that will take.

The only way eliminate racism is to remove "black and white" from the equation.

Difficult to do when race IS still part of the equation. Nice to hope/pray/wish that it wasn't. Advocating for better communication and cooperation between different cultures and races is hardly a negative thing, IMHO. Ignoring it will not make it go away. This seems to be what you are saying.

Well, it's not. Race is only part of the equation because people buy into racism. Ignoring race does not mean ignoring culture (although part of the problems we have is that cultures promote racism). And ignoring race is not the same as ignoring racism.

[Primula Baggins]

Once and for all, Hal, will you please provide your personal definition of racism? Just so we all know what you're talking about, and what you're hearing when we talk?

[N.E. Brigand]

...mostly because it's accepted as some sort of truth that minorities can't be racist...

Racism is defined as the belief that one race is inherently superior to another.
By this definition, someone of a "minority" race or a racial group that is not currently in power, cannot be racist. They might be prejudiced (as in "to pre-judge") but we all are prejudiced in one way or another.

I disagree with your reasoning. Surely members of a racial group that is not in power can think of themselves as superior to a racial group that is in power.

[JewelSong]

Surely members of a racial group that is not in power can think of themselves as superior to a racial group that is in power.

I suppose they COULD. But usually the prevailing ethos is that the group in power is superior.

I have been to a number of workshops, classes and week-long sessions about racism and prejudice - from several different angles and by various factions...white AND black (and also Latino.) All of them defined racism the same way.

And all of them pointed out that (in this country, certainly) it is only white folks who have the option of "not thinking about" race when dealing with others. It's called "white privilege" and it causes more misunderstandings among well-meaning people than anything else. Unless you've really made the attempt to walk in another's shoes on this matter, you will continue to misunderstand and demand that we "move past race."

Which is fine. If you're white.

[halplm]

And all of them pointed out that (in this country, certainly) it is only white folks who have the option of "not thinking about" race when dealing with others. It's called "white privilege" and it causes more misunderstandings among well-meaning people than anything else. Unless you've really made the attempt to walk in another's shoes on this matter, you will continue to misunderstand and demand that we "move past race."

Which is fine. If you're white.

This is why racism cannot be defeated. As long as minorities are told they cannot overcome supposed "white privilege" racism against white people will persist.

Prim, I tried earlier. I can't say much else.

[yovargas]

Supposed "white privilege" racism??

[Voronwë the Faithful]

As a professional who deals with the tangible affects of various forms of racism all the time, I can assure you, Jewelsong, that racism takes many different forms, including African-Americans and Hispanics engaging in racist behavior towards white people.

It just doesn't happen as often.

[JewelSong]

[As long as minorities are told they cannot overcome supposed "white privilege" racism against white people will persist.

Minorities are not told any such thing. It has never been said, or even implied, in all the workshops and classes I have been to, that this cannot be overcome.

But it also has never been said it is as easy as simply deciding it isn't there and not dealing with it.

AND...unless and until whites are willing to take a step to see things from another perspective, they will never even begin to understand WHY this is an issue.

Using terms like "supposed white privilege" as if there IS no such thing, is an example of exactly what I am talking about.

[Inanna]

As a professional who deals with the tangible affects of various forms of racism all the time, I can assure you, Jewelsong, that racism takes many different forms, including African-Americans and Hispanics engaging in racist behavior towards white people.

I agree.

To me, racism is discrimination on the basis of race. ANY RACE. White, black, latino or Asian.

When Indians decide to not rent apartments to Indians, and want to rent it only to whites, that's racism as well. Even if it is within the same race.
And I suspect, this is what Halpm is talking about. As soon as you classify people it is racist. You can classify them as black vs. white, or you can classify them as haves vs. have nots - that is classification as well.

Think of it (I have been thinking), Sherrod could have also said: At that moment I realized that it is not about black vs. white, it is about people being assholes and jerks to other people.

Which is true. But doesn't solve the issue that historically certain communities have been jerks towards other communities, and there is where these lines get born. It takes more than a generation to sweep them away. I mean, we are talking about Shirley's FATHER being lynched. Not great-grandfather! How can you expect her to just move completely beyond that.

And I get her situation and admire her for it.

But I can detach myself from the situation and try and see hal's perspective (or what I think is hal's perspective) from a theoretical standpoint.

[N.E. Brigand]

Surely members of a racial group that is not in power can think of themselves as superior to a racial group that is in power.

I suppose they could. But usually the prevailing ethos is that the group in power is superior. I have been to a number of workshops, classes and week-long sessions about racism and prejudice -- from several different angles and by various factions...white AND black (and also Latino.) All of them defined racism the same way.

If racism is really being regularly misdefined in such workshops as views and deeds that can only be held practiced by the group holding power, I find myself with an inkling of sympathy for hal's frustration -- it sounds like there's been some effort to change the word's meaning from what most of us once learned. Here's a list of definitions obtained through google, only some of which connect "racism" to authority.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
--the prejudice that members of one race are intrinsically superior to members of other races
--discriminatory or abusive behavior towards members of another race
--the belief that race is a primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
--the belief that each race has distinct and intrinsic attributes; The belief that one race is superior to all others; Prejudice or discrimination based upon race
--an ideology based on the idea that humans can be separated into distinct racial groups and that these groups can be ranked on a hierarchy of intelligence, ability, morality, etc.
--the use of race to establish and justify a social hierarchy and system of power that privileges, preferences or advances certain individuals or groups of people usually at the expense of others. Racism is perpetuated through both interpersonal and institutional practices.
--a set of incorrect assumptions, opinions and acts resulting from the belief that one race is inherently/genetically superior to another. It occurs when people are not treated fairly because of their cultural or ethnic differences.
--power plus racial prejudice, a system that leads to the oppression of or discrimination against, specific racial or ethnic groups.
--prejudice or discrimination based on an individual's race; can be expressed individually or through institutional power and authority.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

That said, on this point:

And all of them pointed out that (in this country, certainly) it is only white folks who have the option of "not thinking about" race when dealing with others. It's called "white privilege" and it causes more misunderstandings among well-meaning people than anything else.

While I think the phrase "white privilege" sounds like another seminar buzzword, I am otherwise in agreement. And it is very annoying when someone who has long made low-level racist remarks (in life not on this forum, where I have had no discussion with anyone on this point) suddenly claims the color-blind high ground.

[axordil]

As a professional who deals with the tangible affects of various forms of racism all the time, I can assure you, Jewelsong, that racism takes many different forms, including African-Americans and Hispanics engaging in racist behavior towards white people.

It just doesn't happen as often.

Thus the difference between individual racism and societal racism, aka privilege. In American society, most of the power and money has been and remains in the hands of the majority race. Now, an individual black person could decide not to treat an individual white person well because of their race. That same black person might benefit from that decision, or not.

However, no black person can benefit from society as a whole having been controlled and steered by blacks for centuries--because that isn't what happened. Only a white person can operate in that milieu. Moreover, it's the DEFAULT milieu for white people. It's like oxygen--you depend on it without noticing it, and so does everyone else who's white and American, whether they know it, like it, or not.

(As a side note, the US isn't the only place where this is true. One could argue that the Han have a similar status in China, for example.)

That's the fundamental asymmetry in place here. And it's not as bad as it used to be: white privilege used to include, in many parts of the country, the ability to get away with killing blacks with relative impunity. But it's still present, and its more repugnant forms are still pined for by some: thus the ongoing success of the Southern Strategy.

[Pearly Di]

I'm a 48 year old Englishwoman. The Oxford Dictionary's definition of racism certainly accords with my life-long understanding of what it is:

- The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
- Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

'White privilege' is not a myth. My current government is mostly made up of privileged white men from Eton and Oxford! I happen to belong genetically to a tribe of people who just over a century ago were very happily ordering a whole bunch of other people around ... including the Scots, the Welsh and the Irish! [Well, as far as I know my genes are Anglo-Saxon. I'm adopted, so don't have much clue about my ancestry. But I would take a good bet I am descended in many generations from Danes, Jutes and Angles. ]

And nobody in my country has ever discriminated against me because of the colour of my skin.

However, the history of white privilege doesn't mean that white people can't have racism or prejudice directed at them.

It is very good to have an open and honest discussion about these issues. I certainly found my staff session on Racial Awareness very useful and enlightening. We all carry prejudices and assumptions. It is good to be honest about them, and to be teachable and flexible about changing our perceptions.

[JewelSong]

Code: Select all

We all carry prejudices and assumptions. It is good to be honest about them, and to be teachable and flexible about changing our perceptions.

Word.

[vison]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Like_Me

Worth reading, mes amis.

[nerdanel]

And all of them pointed out that (in this country, certainly) it is only white folks who have the option of "not thinking about" race when dealing with others. It's called "white privilege" and it causes more misunderstandings among well-meaning people than anything else. Unless you've really made the attempt to walk in another's shoes on this matter, you will continue to misunderstand and demand that we "move past race."

I'm trying to decide the relevance of this statement to my American experience as a "highly assimilated" minority. By "assimilated", I refer to those of us who are technically racial minorities who blend as seamlessly as possible into the majority culture, whether by choice, circumstance, or otherwise.

My first reaction to Jewel's, "It's only white folks who have the option of 'not thinking about' race when dealing with others" was, "That's not true - 98 percent of the time I feel the same way." (and I'll bet that at least 2 percent of the time, most whites are aware of race in some form, too) The only language I speak is English and the only country in which I've lived is the United States. I often feel that I might know less than the average white Californian about my parents' culture and feel still less curiosity about it. I have what you might call "ambiguity privilege" - most people can't manage to figure out my ethnicity via my name or appearance. This is convenient because people who would be so inclined can't figure out what racial stereotypes or slurs to apply, and so hold off (or use the "wrong" ones, which I find both entertaining and stupid). Since I find my own ethnicity rather unimportant and irrelevant, I'm delighted that most people can't figure it out from my name or appearance.

In addition to my ethnic ambiguity, I'm fortunate to belong to an ethnic group that does not have a particularly long or painful history in the U.S. I think it's only in recent years that whites have noticed that we're even here -- although East Asians have had a rather troubled history of discrimination in the U.S., South Asians have had a far less clear history. Although there have undoubtedly been many South Asians who have faced discrimination for their brown skin, I think it has never been institutionalized in the U.S. in the same way as, say, anti-Chinese persecution at the turn of the 20th century or anti-Japanese persecution during WWII. Thus, to the extent that I strongly identify with my ethnicity, which usually doesn't happen on days ending in Y, there is not a distinct, articulated painful history that attaches to it.

This combination of factors is comparatively unusual, but leads to this general outcome: I'm an American American from America who has both brown skin and the option of not thinking about race when dealing with others. These days, I use that option far more than I don't. I don't usually think about my race because it has very little meaning to me, apart from certain cultural factors in how I was raised, and it rarely seems to make a tangible difference in how others treat me. (In theory, I may lack a component of white privilege: it is possible that all of the white people around me are silently thinking about my race/different skin color. Honestly, I doubt it, and if I'm wrong, what I don't know isn't hurting me in the least. If that is indeed happening, I hope those people find something more interesting to think about soon.)

These were my first, rather carefree reactions to Jewel's post. But then I thought -- the reason I feel I have the option not to think about race is that I chose from the time I was a toddler, before I even knew the word, to assimilate as thoroughly as possible. As young as 3 or 4, I was insisting to my parents that I didn't want to eat Indian food, learn Indian languages, etc., because, in my toddler words, "I'm an American and I'm from America!" (N.B. as an adult, I've often regretted this decision not to learn more about Indian culture as a child, when it could have felt more like "my" culture. Now, it feels like a foreign culture, rather than something I can legitimately claim as my own.) So, I'm not glorifying my childhood words, but instead mulling the concept: why was it so important to me, as a young child, to integrate fully into the dominant culture rather than exploring aspects of my cultural heritage that would have put me outside the norm? It may be because I had to grapple with a concept that most white children do not - to perceive a potential part of my life that was "different" and "other" than what seemed "normal" in Virginia, culturally/ethnically, and to decide whether to embrace it or reject it.

I think that if I had embraced it -- a part of me, as an adult, wishes that I had -- I might have lacked the option not to think about race. If I felt a strong tie to a non-white-majority culture or a non-Western set of values (or even religious practices), I might feel more like a minority on a daily basis. Then, I would feel a sense of belonging to a group that is underrepresented in many contexts (and whose values and practices and beliefs are not fully championed by the dominant culture), and that would cause me some consternation. It is perhaps only by choosing not to embrace pieces of my "birthright" identity that I have assimilated to the point where I genuinely rarely feel like a "racial minority". That process is something that those who have "white privilege" would rarely experience (with the possible exception of whites who have migrated from very different cultures than ours).

I offer these thoughts for a few reasons. I would like to discourage whites from thinking that it is only they who can experience society without routinely thinking about their race, and I would like to suggest that for at least some minorities, this is also possible. However, I would also point out that there are many reasons this is not possible for all minorities. It is thus shortsighted and overly simplistic that all minorities should, hey presto, lose awareness of their race. Many minorities are the victims of severe racial discrimination or persecution. It is unrealistic to contend that they should "look past" race when it has a nexus to the discrimination they face. For others, minority status is linked to culture, and to assimilate would be to cast off important pieces of their identity. And yet, participating in a culture outside the norm leads to increased awareness of underrepresentation of or overt discrimination against that group. For still others, minority status is linked to a painful racial history in their country -- a history that continues to disadvantage members of that race born today. (I'm reminded of the old analogy about a basketball game being played while one team's hands are free, but their opponents' hands are handcuffed behind their backs. At halftime, the handcuffs are removed. The former team would like to pretend that there were never handcuffs and that the score is legitimate. The latter team, for some strange reason, does not share this perspective.) Whites who contend that minorities belonging to any of these groups should "ignore race" are exhibiting a privileged, oblivious perspective. Nonetheless, it is true that we as a society -- and the affected minorities in particular -- must overcome/move past/rise above racism's painful past and present if we are ever to realize MLK's dream in our country. It's vaguely paradoxical and it's not easy - else we would've done it already.

Finally -- and this is a thought I can't fit neatly into the above post -- I also view racism as connected to infrastructural power, and I do think it is possible for minorities to work themselves far enough into the power structure to exercise racism towards other minorities or towards whites. For instance, consider a minority police officer who fails to arrest criminals of his own race, or arrests whites at a far greater rate; a minority judge who rules disproportionately for her own race; a minority mayor who exercises favoritism in city hiring practices. These individuals' practices may not have the same broad impact as "societal racism" ... but I'd be hard-pressed to tell a hypothetical innocent white person who was deliberately wrongfully arrested and detained by a minority police officer who dislikes whites, that he was not the victim of racism.

[yovargas]

(As a thoroughly "assimilated" and pretty light-skinned Hispanic, I also very rarely ever think about how my race affects my life.)