A BBC reporter on the ground reports that the plane crashed on the pilot's 4th attempt to land. He had been asked to go to a different airport but for some reason tried one more time and apparently hit the trees at the end of the runway. It was very foggy.
This is a dreadful thing.
Polish president is dead in plane crash.
I just keep thinking of all those people who found out their loved ones were dead in so many seconds. News traveled extremely fast- the plane lost contact with the ground just before nine am, by nine our most active news channel reported it missing, by nine thirty we knew it had crashed. No survivors was the official verdict before ten o'clock. The blink of an eye. No maybe, no hopefully, no chance at all for fate to turn. I know, it doesn't matter, fate never actually turns, what happens happens and perhaps it is better to know people are dead at once instead of spending hours hoping and praying, but it's so SURREAL. It was so...efficient. Information didn't stall for one second.
And it's such an unbelievably weird feeling to turn on the tv and see a black bar across the screen saying 'The President is dead'.
He wasn't my favourite, but he was the President. And while I disagreed strongly with a lot of his politics he did many, many great things for this country. He made immense efforts to bring to light historical events which our fresh capitalist years had forgotten just as the communist years had kept them buried.
It is thanks to him that we have an Uprising Museum- I quote it as the most symbolic and tangible result of his work. Those who fought in the Uprising waited for SIXTY YEARS to be honoured. It was never important enough until Lech Kaczyński became President. Now, we have an amazing museum which has sparked a new interest among young people- the events of WW2 and the brave people who lived through it are now interesting again. This is extremely important. It gives young people a sense of belonging to a great country, a country worth fighting for- something to replace the constant disillusion and blind chase after the West. And it tells those who fought that war that their efforts were neither in vain, nor forgotten. They have been acknowledged as more than 'just old people'- they are heroes.
So he was not perfect, but he remembered many important things others found easy to forget. One such thing touched me personally. My father is a poet, as some of you know, and not an insignificant one- he was published in the underground press and his works brought hope to many people during the difficult communist years. He appears in school books and encyclopaedias. I can see just how much he matters to people whenever he has an authors' meeting- they show up in large numbers, quoting his poetry, remembering the days when. Sadly, while the people remember, institutions forget. To the point- in March, my father celebrated his 75th birthday. Not one of the many institutions who should have remembered did- not the Writers' Association, not the theatre which he lead for many years... bah, he was Ambassador in Ireland for four years, the FIRST ever Polish Ambassador in the Republic of Ireland. He's done a lot of things that COUNT. At 75, he deserves a bit of a parade.
The only one who sent an official letter and a huge bouquet of flowers was Lech Kaczyński. I know, Presidents have people who take care of such things. But our experience is such people rarely remember those who are not at the top. And my dad knew Lech Kaczyński, from back in the Solidarity days. They weren't close, but when the letter arrived, when he read it, he knew it was personal. It showed such knowledge, such understanding for his work...it was no form letter. It was a true appreciation of his poetry and of the 75 years he lived and the 50 years he published.
So that was our President. A worthy man in many many ways. I would not vote for him, I didn't, but there is no way I can stand here and say he did nothing good for us.
And it's such an unbelievably weird feeling to turn on the tv and see a black bar across the screen saying 'The President is dead'.
He wasn't my favourite, but he was the President. And while I disagreed strongly with a lot of his politics he did many, many great things for this country. He made immense efforts to bring to light historical events which our fresh capitalist years had forgotten just as the communist years had kept them buried.
It is thanks to him that we have an Uprising Museum- I quote it as the most symbolic and tangible result of his work. Those who fought in the Uprising waited for SIXTY YEARS to be honoured. It was never important enough until Lech Kaczyński became President. Now, we have an amazing museum which has sparked a new interest among young people- the events of WW2 and the brave people who lived through it are now interesting again. This is extremely important. It gives young people a sense of belonging to a great country, a country worth fighting for- something to replace the constant disillusion and blind chase after the West. And it tells those who fought that war that their efforts were neither in vain, nor forgotten. They have been acknowledged as more than 'just old people'- they are heroes.
So he was not perfect, but he remembered many important things others found easy to forget. One such thing touched me personally. My father is a poet, as some of you know, and not an insignificant one- he was published in the underground press and his works brought hope to many people during the difficult communist years. He appears in school books and encyclopaedias. I can see just how much he matters to people whenever he has an authors' meeting- they show up in large numbers, quoting his poetry, remembering the days when. Sadly, while the people remember, institutions forget. To the point- in March, my father celebrated his 75th birthday. Not one of the many institutions who should have remembered did- not the Writers' Association, not the theatre which he lead for many years... bah, he was Ambassador in Ireland for four years, the FIRST ever Polish Ambassador in the Republic of Ireland. He's done a lot of things that COUNT. At 75, he deserves a bit of a parade.
The only one who sent an official letter and a huge bouquet of flowers was Lech Kaczyński. I know, Presidents have people who take care of such things. But our experience is such people rarely remember those who are not at the top. And my dad knew Lech Kaczyński, from back in the Solidarity days. They weren't close, but when the letter arrived, when he read it, he knew it was personal. It showed such knowledge, such understanding for his work...it was no form letter. It was a true appreciation of his poetry and of the 75 years he lived and the 50 years he published.
So that was our President. A worthy man in many many ways. I would not vote for him, I didn't, but there is no way I can stand here and say he did nothing good for us.
Rodia, I am so sorry this happened to the people of Poland! I realize it would be odd to say, 'sorry for your loss' over a president, but it...it feels like it should be that way. I realize it may just have been pilot's error, but it seems like when the plane was shot down in Rwanda...the one that sparked the genocide. I just...that sort of thing is pretty awful, and when it was over a massacre, too....
But, strangely enough, it's not why I thought of you today. The Bounty was in port a stone's throw from where I work, and I went to see it.
But, strangely enough, it's not why I thought of you today. The Bounty was in port a stone's throw from where I work, and I went to see it.
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Voronwë the Faithful
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Thank you, Ro, for that very moving description of a flawed but still worthy leader who was taken away from your country and the world along with so many others, so suddenly. It really does help to put it in context, a little bit.
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
Vison, that's a lovely thought but...I think it would get lost among the many condolences, and I don't think I could put it in better words, and those are shabby at best. My dad was on the radio last night, he said as much- he feels the same way.
I also only speak of the President, but so many other people died! Important, valuable people. I feel particular pain for the representatives of those organisations for Siberian exiles, for the Katyń memory...they devoted their lives to preserving the memory of something which I find difficult just to think about!
I feel like I have to apologise for having this not very Lasto thread in here, this is all emotion and not serious discussion about facts. I'd fall short if I tried the latter though. My mind is too scattered.
And I need to clarify I wasn't trying to be paranoid earlier. I really do believe an accident is all it probably was. It was just my attempt to show how difficult it is to react to something like this in our country, and what the inevitable associations are which will form in people's minds. Russia is big and scary, much scarier to us than any other country in the world, and the gut reaction is always mistrust.
I also only speak of the President, but so many other people died! Important, valuable people. I feel particular pain for the representatives of those organisations for Siberian exiles, for the Katyń memory...they devoted their lives to preserving the memory of something which I find difficult just to think about!
I feel like I have to apologise for having this not very Lasto thread in here, this is all emotion and not serious discussion about facts. I'd fall short if I tried the latter though. My mind is too scattered.
And I need to clarify I wasn't trying to be paranoid earlier. I really do believe an accident is all it probably was. It was just my attempt to show how difficult it is to react to something like this in our country, and what the inevitable associations are which will form in people's minds. Russia is big and scary, much scarier to us than any other country in the world, and the gut reaction is always mistrust.
I hope you enjoyed it. You probably met some people I know, they're on board... 
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Voronwë the Faithful
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This thread could conceivably be in Tol Eressëa where we have had other threads that have largely been to express shock, sympathy and condolences after other tragedies, but I think it is fine for it to be here.Rodia wrote:I feel like I have to apologise for having this not very Lasto thread in here, this is all emotion and not serious discussion about facts. I'd fall short if I tried the latter though. My mind is too scattered.
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
It might yet develop into more Lastoish thread, once the first shock wears off and Poland turns to rebuilding its government. 
Meanwhile, I am glad that it does appear to be an accident. I realize that many Poles will never quite believe this and we will never be quite absolutely certain. Still, it would be such a terrible act of breaking faith, an act of war, really. I am glad it seems unlikely.
Meanwhile, I am glad that it does appear to be an accident. I realize that many Poles will never quite believe this and we will never be quite absolutely certain. Still, it would be such a terrible act of breaking faith, an act of war, really. I am glad it seems unlikely.
If there was anything that depressed him more than his own cynicism, it was that quite often it still wasn't as cynical as real life.
Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!
Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!
Thinking of you and my polish family... and those poor people... I have known all my life about Katyn and it seems so weird to see it told so differently. In Western Germany, it was one of those examples: the Germans were not the only baddies... in Eastern Germany, it was hidden in the history books or blamed on the German fascists. It's an example I use frequently for "history of history" - to show how the same event is presented differently, how truth is hidden, how knowledge can be manipulated.
Your words are beautiful, you artist.
"nolite te bastardes carborundorum".
Government aside, the Russian people are reaching out to us in such a kind way, it's tear-wrenching, and makes one feel bad for the initial thoughts. Many people are saying it's incredible how much warmth is coming to us from the East. Even Putin's speeches seem softer and sincere.
Maybe, like some articles predict, this may be a good healing salve for the rifts between us? What a wonderful thing that would be, if it was a true healing. We did all come from the same legendary brothers, after all.
If you don't mind me going on and on and on...
One awkward benefit comes from this tragedy- more people will hear about Katyń. I know it seems like I am obsessively coming back to this 70 year-old war crime, but I can't exaggerate how importat it is in Polish minds. All the more for having been denied and hidden; all the more for the fact that people forget the end of WW2 was not by any means the end of our troubles. Those who should have been praises as heroes were repressed.
My own grandfather, an officer, was arrested by the NKVD in 44. He was lucky and was not killed or sent East like many others were. Later, when my father tried to get into journalism at the university, he was told that though he passed the exams, his lineage was not acceptable. They meant his father.
He tells me with unbearable honesty that in those times, he did not even realise how much he lacked freedom. His world was small, deprived of information, closed by invisible walls. How could he know? It was the only world he had ever seen, save his war-torn childhood (he was born in 1935)
So, the Katyń massacre is, for Poles, the greatest symbol of the soviet lies and repression. That the plane crashed under such circumstances is an unfortunate coincidence, perhaps, and not symbolic at all, but certainly it has a mysticism to it which is hard to explain. We feel it, we have to ponder it, we have to think and talk about it.
Aleksander Kwaśniewski, the president before Kaczyński, reacted by calling the forest 'cursed'. I think most of us feel that way, whether we let ourselves start dramatising or not.
Maybe, like some articles predict, this may be a good healing salve for the rifts between us? What a wonderful thing that would be, if it was a true healing. We did all come from the same legendary brothers, after all.
If you don't mind me going on and on and on...
One awkward benefit comes from this tragedy- more people will hear about Katyń. I know it seems like I am obsessively coming back to this 70 year-old war crime, but I can't exaggerate how importat it is in Polish minds. All the more for having been denied and hidden; all the more for the fact that people forget the end of WW2 was not by any means the end of our troubles. Those who should have been praises as heroes were repressed.
My own grandfather, an officer, was arrested by the NKVD in 44. He was lucky and was not killed or sent East like many others were. Later, when my father tried to get into journalism at the university, he was told that though he passed the exams, his lineage was not acceptable. They meant his father.
He tells me with unbearable honesty that in those times, he did not even realise how much he lacked freedom. His world was small, deprived of information, closed by invisible walls. How could he know? It was the only world he had ever seen, save his war-torn childhood (he was born in 1935)
So, the Katyń massacre is, for Poles, the greatest symbol of the soviet lies and repression. That the plane crashed under such circumstances is an unfortunate coincidence, perhaps, and not symbolic at all, but certainly it has a mysticism to it which is hard to explain. We feel it, we have to ponder it, we have to think and talk about it.
Aleksander Kwaśniewski, the president before Kaczyński, reacted by calling the forest 'cursed'. I think most of us feel that way, whether we let ourselves start dramatising or not.
Nin, I was writing as you posted. Thanks for your words.
Worth mentioning that the Nazis were actually the ones to first uncover the crime scene- of course they broadcasted it far and wide, but as propaganda against the Soviet Union. Never mind that they also tried to kill off our intellectual leaders, just like the soviets, to weaken us as a people. Later the blame was bounced onto the german fascists, just like you say, because we were under Soviet rule. Or else it was said it did not happen at all.
You know we are STILL trying to straighten out our historical facts, with mixed results. The director of the Rememberance Institute also died on that plane, and that is another significant blow.
But we are only 20 years old as a free country, so slowly things are coming to light, and they should. Our own people's crimes included.
Thank you for talking about it.
Worth mentioning that the Nazis were actually the ones to first uncover the crime scene- of course they broadcasted it far and wide, but as propaganda against the Soviet Union. Never mind that they also tried to kill off our intellectual leaders, just like the soviets, to weaken us as a people. Later the blame was bounced onto the german fascists, just like you say, because we were under Soviet rule. Or else it was said it did not happen at all.
You know we are STILL trying to straighten out our historical facts, with mixed results. The director of the Rememberance Institute also died on that plane, and that is another significant blow.
But we are only 20 years old as a free country, so slowly things are coming to light, and they should. Our own people's crimes included.
Thank you for talking about it.
You know, Madzia, the Germans of that time, the Nazis, they did not consider the Polish people as persons, but as cattle. Their crimes are horrible. But they are better known and better admitted than the Soviet crimes. I think that chancellor Brandt falling on his knees in Warsaw in 1971 did more than many words of explanation can do.
Poland is difficult for me. It's my heritage too, nothing but in the food (christmas carp...), but a heritage in denial. I should talk about this one day.
Anyway, it's a blow for the Polish people.
Jeszcze Polska nie zginęła.
Poland is difficult for me. It's my heritage too, nothing but in the food (christmas carp...), but a heritage in denial. I should talk about this one day.
Anyway, it's a blow for the Polish people.
Jeszcze Polska nie zginęła.
"nolite te bastardes carborundorum".
Póki my żyjemy. I love that part of our national anthem, it says it all. "Poland has not perished yet, not while we are alive." It was written by a soldier in an exiled regiment, while Poland did not exist on the map. Actually, the original which did not scan so well was "Jeszcze Polska nie umarła", which is literally "Poland is not dead yet".
I agree, Nin, it always annoys me when people don't realise that the Soviet Union was not just a funny bunch of romantics with red flags. A swastika is damned, but people wear hammer and sickle t-shirts. I wish they didn't. I wish they'd stop and think a minute about what that represents.
I think Poland is difficult for a lot of people. War is one thing, what happens after is another...it does not just end when a pact is signed. The people remain, sometimes behind the wrong border, and they have to deal with it. If you want to talk some day I will listen and talk also.
I agree, Nin, it always annoys me when people don't realise that the Soviet Union was not just a funny bunch of romantics with red flags. A swastika is damned, but people wear hammer and sickle t-shirts. I wish they didn't. I wish they'd stop and think a minute about what that represents.
I think Poland is difficult for a lot of people. War is one thing, what happens after is another...it does not just end when a pact is signed. The people remain, sometimes behind the wrong border, and they have to deal with it. If you want to talk some day I will listen and talk also.
My grandfather uses to repeat those two lines. I wonder now what they meant to him, a Polish Jew in excile.
The romantics with red flags were rounded up by 1937, most of them. One of my great uncles among them, an officer of the Red Army, shot. Yet at least at the start, there truly was an ideal there, of equality and prosperity for all, like Star Trek. I know that some of it survived till the very end. Not in the government, not for a long time.
It boggles my mind when I stop to think that a monster like Stalin is dwarfed in the eyes of history by Hitler's monstrosity. It's a terrible century we leave behind.
The romantics with red flags were rounded up by 1937, most of them. One of my great uncles among them, an officer of the Red Army, shot. Yet at least at the start, there truly was an ideal there, of equality and prosperity for all, like Star Trek. I know that some of it survived till the very end. Not in the government, not for a long time.
It boggles my mind when I stop to think that a monster like Stalin is dwarfed in the eyes of history by Hitler's monstrosity. It's a terrible century we leave behind.
If there was anything that depressed him more than his own cynicism, it was that quite often it still wasn't as cynical as real life.
Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!
Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!
I have been told that one of the slogans for Solidarnosc was that two plus two should always equal four...apparently a take off of a joke that it equaled whatever the Party told you it did. (poster) Truth tends to be a powerful remedy for distortions of it.
There have to have been leaders in history who were as unsavory as Hitler and Stalin (or worse?
)...but perhaps they didn't have access to quite so many victims. I mean, no one wanted to be a boyar under Vlad the Impaler, either. But I agree that the 20th century was...particularly horrific in a lot of ways that earlier senseless violence can't compare to.
There have to have been leaders in history who were as unsavory as Hitler and Stalin (or worse?
)...but perhaps they didn't have access to quite so many victims. I mean, no one wanted to be a boyar under Vlad the Impaler, either. But I agree that the 20th century was...particularly horrific in a lot of ways that earlier senseless violence can't compare to.