Roe v Wade has been overturned. How do you feel about that?

[Inanna]

Romania & US are considered classic real-life experiments about the impact of legal abortion on crime rate etc.

[Frelga]

Old Soviet poster saying that abortion is harmful and it is better to prevent a pregnancy than to abort it. Which is a great deal more logical than the conservative approach, which restricts access to contraception while criminalizing abortion.

As far as I know, in Soviet times abortion was available and kept between a woman and her doctor. Although I'm sure individual experiences varied.

IMG_20180508_121701.jpg (59.19 KiB) Viewed 10791 times

[Sunsilver]

Rose, I remember Nicolae Ceaușescu. That was horrible what happened under his regime.

[RoseMorninStar]

Rose, I remember Nicolae Ceaușescu. That was horrible what happened under his regime.

He was a horrible man and it was a horrible regime. Romania's Orphan History

We had seriously considered adopting a child from Romania, and so became acutely aware of what had happened. We sent a lot of toys & whatnot (a large refrigerator box full) to the orphanages but after the HIV/AIDS outbreak and the discovery that many of the children had developmental issues due to the lack of care & interaction, international adoptions were closed in 2001. We have neighbors who adopted one child from Russia, another from Romania. They were able to do since they are a Doctor & Nurse went over to those countries volunteering their services for periods of 6 months in each country. Both children (now adults) have issues. Truly heartbreaking for thousands and thousands of children & families.

This is an area where I just think the government should tread extremely lightly or stay out of altogether. There are other ways of reducing abortions/respecting life, but it seems we are hellbent in reducing/doing away with all of the programs that do just that. Helping those in crisis pregnancies. Financial aid. Affordable housing. Health care. Contraception and sex education. We in the US don't view families and children as an investment in our future but as bargaining chips that can be neglected. *sigh*

[River]

The Romanian orphanages became an unfortunate large-scale natural experiment in the effects of neglect on infants. And the thing is, the Romanian regime took a stab at providing social support to expecting mothers. But nothing good comes of sticking laws up people's genitals.

In 1989, when Communist governments in Europe were dropping like flies, the only country to experience a violent revolution was Romania. Ceausescu and his wife were executed by firing squad. A large fraction of the revolutionaries were born during the time of Decree 770. If I was required to see a gyno every month to verify I wasn't sneaking birth control or something I'd get violently ****ed off too. Anyway, there's a pretty unsparing Romanian movie about what it was like to be a young Romanian woman in the 1980's: 4 Months, 3 Weeks, and 2 Days.

[Cerin]

This article proposes that the four liberal justices were too afraid to vote to hear this case, fearing the outcome, so this atrocious law will stand. I would rather they had tried and failed than not tried, because I think this particular issue needs to be publicly aired.


https://slate.com/news-and-politics/201 ... l-law.html

[Inanna]

So Depressing. The damage Trump’s legal appointees will do to the fabric of this country, will persist for years.

[RoseMorninStar]

Decades. The rest of some of our lifetimes.

[Frelga]

The eternity that people who will die because of this will remain dead.

[Túrin Turambar]

Poland's Constitutional Court has ruled that abortion is unconstitutional except in cases of rape or incest, or where the mother's life is at risk. The judges who made the ruling where appointed to the court by the socially-conservative Law and Justice Party following a legal brawl a few years ago (which, in fairness to Law and Justice, they didn't start). But it's a reminder that the Party means business.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Sounds familiar (in advance). [Actually, in the U.S. abortion won't be ruled to be illegal throughout the whole country, it will just be left to the states to do so, and many or most will.]

[Frelga]

Apparently the big change is that now Polish women will be forced to carry to term a pregnancy in which the fetus is so malformed that it will not survive outside the womb. Like anencephaly, in which the fetus lacks most of the brain and skull.

[Túrin Turambar]

Apparently the big change is that now Polish women will be forced to carry to term a pregnancy in which the fetus is so malformed that it will not survive outside the womb. Like anencephaly, in which the fetus lacks most of the brain and skull.

Yes, abortion was previously permitted in the case of fetal deformity, but isn't now.

[Inanna]

Assholes.

[Snowdog]

Sounds familiar (in advance). [Actually, in the U.S. abortion won't be ruled to be illegal throughout the whole country, it will just be left to the states to do so, and many or most will.]

Sadly that will be the case. For those who want an abortion, women who live in illegal states and have means to travel to a legal state will do so, while women who don't have the means will seek out illegal underground abortion providers that will be unregulated. That was the way it was before Roe v Wade.

[elengil]

I'm more worried about 'illegal' states prosecuting women who travel to get one.

[Túrin Turambar]

Actually prosecuting someone for having an abortion is actually much harder than it sounds, because the state needs to prove beyond reasonable doubt that the abortion actually happened and wasn't for an allowed reason. For example, my home state of Queensland had anti-abortion laws on the books until very recently which hadn't actually been used since the 1980s (with one exception). Doctors would not provide the evidence, and because of it, prosecutors could not justify starting prosecutions they were almost certain to lose. This is something the pro-life side often overlooks.

[elengil]

Actually prosecuting someone for having an abortion is actually much harder than it sounds, because the state needs to prove beyond reasonable doubt that the abortion actually happened and wasn't for an allowed reason. For example, my home state of Queensland had anti-abortion laws on the books until very recently which hadn't actually been used since the 1980s (with one exception). Doctors would not provide the evidence, and because of it, prosecutors could not justify starting prosecutions they were almost certain to lose. This is something the pro-life side often overlooks.

If it's illegal in a state, it is entirely possible for the state to charge the woman with something because there is no 'allowed' reason. Now, whether it'll hold up in court or on appeal if it was actually done in a state where it *is* legal, that's another matter entirely. But I wouldn't put it past any anti-abortion state to try.

[RoseMorninStar]

I went back and read the first couple of pages of this thread. 2005! Lots of interesting discussion, some from those who are no longer with us.

[Túrin Turambar]

Actually prosecuting someone for having an abortion is actually much harder than it sounds, because the state needs to prove beyond reasonable doubt that the abortion actually happened and wasn't for an allowed reason. For example, my home state of Queensland had anti-abortion laws on the books until very recently which hadn't actually been used since the 1980s (with one exception). Doctors would not provide the evidence, and because of it, prosecutors could not justify starting prosecutions they were almost certain to lose. This is something the pro-life side often overlooks.

If it's illegal in a state, it is entirely possible for the state to charge the woman with something because there is no 'allowed' reason. Now, whether it'll hold up in court or on appeal if it was actually done in a state where it *is* legal, that's another matter entirely. But I wouldn't put it past any anti-abortion state to try.

Queensland didn't have any exemption, but there's a provision in the Queensland Criminal Code which lets you plead a defence of medical necessity to any offence (e.g. stealing medicine). The standard for establishing a defence in Queensland criminal law is the balance of probabilities, so the jury had to be satisfied that the abortion was probably not medically necessary. If the defence could find a doctor to give evidence that it was, a jury without medical qualifications could never be satisfied to the required standard that it wasn't. But I appreciate it would depend on the criminal code/law of the individual state.