The space horseys were indeed in the atmosphere, though that didn't prevent them from looking pretty darn silly.
I had a much more confusion on, wait, why can't this huge mass of super powerful ships leave the atmosphere again? Are we saying they're all controlled by one tower or something? Though not much of what was happening during that whole sequence made much sense so it's probably best not to look for it....
I wanna love somebody but I don't know how
I wanna throw my body in the river and drown
-The Decemberists
The whole 'superweapon with an arbitrary weakness' (or in the case of RoS, fleet of superweapons with an arbitrary weakness) is definately one of Star Wars' major flaws. I can forgive George Lucas for doing it in Episode IV, as it was entirely new and the film was kind-of stylised in a Flash Gordon way, and because it's done in such an engaging way. But it's a still a problem, even seen through the lens of heavy nostalgia. I can't really forgive him for doing the same thing in Episode VI - the repeat of the Death Star trope is a fatal weakness for that movie in my view. Seeing it done again and again after that...
Rogue One makes the weakness deliberate sabotage. I'm still not sure how I feel about that movie, it's due for a rewatch.
But yeah, the endless proliferation of planet destroyers is ridiculous and if you try to raise the stakes again and again people will just stop caring. And at least when Alderaan was destroyed, Obi-wan and Leia and even Tarkin had some emotional connection to it - now it's turned into just another item on the checklist. Somehow they've managed to (re-)recycle the lamest parts of the old EU and almost none of the good.
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OT: but sometimes movies get made that you just wonder “why”? Last weekend, the child wanted to see the lion king song “circle of life”. Searching on YouTube also yielded the new lion king songs. When R and I saw the circle of life in the new animation- we were just flabbergasted *why* an early focus group would not have thrown this out?
'You just said "your getting shorter": you've obviously been drinking too much ent-draught and not enough Prim's.' - Jude
Túrin Turambar wrote:The whole 'superweapon with an arbitrary weakness' (or in the case of RoS, fleet of superweapons with an arbitrary weakness) is definately one of Star Wars' major flaws. I can forgive George Lucas for doing it in Episode IV, as it was entirely new and the film was kind-of stylised in a Flash Gordon way, and because it's done in such an engaging way. But it's a still a problem, even seen through the lens of heavy nostalgia. I can't really forgive him for doing the same thing in Episode VI - the repeat of the Death Star trope is a fatal weakness for that movie in my view. Seeing it done again and again after that...
Join me in the dark side of wanting to redo and retcon the original trilogy.
I wanna love somebody but I don't know how
I wanna throw my body in the river and drown
-The Decemberists
The Empire Strikes Back is so good that I wouldn’t want to see the original trilogy redone for that reason alone, and while I can see the flaws in A New Hope it’s such an important film from an artistic perspective I also can’t ever see it being replaced. It’d be like painting a more realistic Mona Lisa using modern methods – it’s not really the point.
I still think the answer is the one I put before, and what Disney has basically done with The Mandalorian – leave the Skywalkers in peace and use the cool universe they’ve got rights for to set more and different stories. They could avoid all the OT’s problems with something entirely new. I mean, even if they wanted to simply adapt existing material there’s thousands of pages to work with – look at how long the Wookiepieda article on the Jedi Order is once it incorporates the EU content.
Redoing the original trilogy would be a disaster and would destroy whatever good will Disney has left with fans. Yes it has its flaws, but it's very much made in the right place at the right time with all the stars aligning just right in a way that could never be replicated. Practical effects had evolved just far enough to make it possible pre-CG, a young ambitious Lucas was willing to go against the Hollywood system, said system still left more room for original IPs than today, Lucas also had people like his wife to give him corrections and call out bad ideas, John Williams, lots of original visual designs, Harrison Ford still early in his career.
Like Casablanca, Star Wars became a hit almost by accident. Any attempt at redoing it might be more polished, but far less interesting.
I watched the Mandalorian and it was a lot of fun. Not perfect, but a breath of fresh air for sure and seems like the way forward for Star Wars (last two episodes are a good foundation for future seasons), and it did a good job drawing from the movies without feeling like overbearing fanservice. The universe is big enough to tell a lot of smaller stories, as Túrin said.
Although, I'm afraid the sequel trilogy's moving the politics back to rebels vs. empire are going to limit post-OT stories over time. Force Awakens hitting the reset button on this kind of doomed the trilogy in retrospect, and for the talk about subverting expectations The Last Jedi doubled down on it.
Eh, I think that's just another way to argue for that the core fans love their nostalgia. I certainly think a version of SW where the rebels and empire have clearer reasons behind their war, where the significance of the Force is more than just an occasional neat little magic trick, where blood lines weren't given a bunch of unexplained significance, and where the villians didn't keep building planet destroying super weapons with one fatal flaw would be a much more interesting version of SW than the one we got.
I wanna love somebody but I don't know how
I wanna throw my body in the river and drown
-The Decemberists
To continue an analogy you used earlier, I think what you're asking for is a bit like Tolkien's discarded rewrite of The Hobbit: he at first thought it would be good to completely redo it in light of LotR and the broader legendarium, but then found it didn't work with the story he had written. It was better to keep the story as-is (with the tweaks he made after LotR like retconning Riddles in the Dark) with its idiosyncrasies and flaws.
Some of what you say has already been done, like the EU has explored different theories of the nature of the Force and one of the more interesting threads of the prequels (with flawed execution, yes) is that the old Jedi were corrupt, compromised, and brought down by their hubris.
Have you seen Star Trek: Deep Space Nine? That has complex politics, lots of different factions with different goals and often their own internal conflicts too. Might be a space opera more to your liking.
I actually think IV paints a pretty interesting picture of the imperial military and bureaucracy with very economical storytelling, by the way.
Last edited by kzer_za on Sat Jan 04, 2020 9:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Thor Skywalker, the creator of one of the largest Star Wars fan Youtube channels I'm aware of, has run a series of polls asking his followers (who number in the tens of thousands) for their rating (1-5 stars) of all live-action Star Wars films. While it's not a perfect representation of fan opinion, I think it's pretty close. Just out of interest, here's the average rating for each of the films by his viewers:
The Empire Strikes Back - 4.75
A New Hope - 4.50
Return of the Jedi - 4.32
Revenge of the Sith - 4.17
Rogue One - 3.78
The Phantom Menace - 3.14
The Force Awakens - 3.04
Solo - 2.94
Attack of the Clones - 2.92
The Rise of Skywalker - 2.70
The Last Jedi - 1.88
Which sounds reasonable to me based on my experience of SW fans. My own list wouldn't be too dissimilar, although I'm not as enthusiastic about Return of the Jedi as most fans and not as critical of Attack of the Clones.
Whereas, I have seen some critics lists that have The Last Jedi rated No. 1, even above The Empire Strikes Back.
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
I'm one of the few who was just "meh" on The Last Jedi, I didn't like it all that much but I didn't hate it and RoS offended me far more. I plan to go through the new movies soonish, we'll see how I feel the second time.
I will say that the media narrative that anyone who dislikes TLJ is racist/misogynist/afraid of change has made me like it less though. Especially for a movie that talks about "letting go of the past" while doubling down on TFA's reset to rebels vs. empire and where the black character is basically an ex-janitor turned bumbling comic sidekick.
Voronwë the Faithful wrote:Whereas, I have seen some critics lists that have The Last Jedi rated No. 1, even above The Empire Strikes Back.
The poll was for fans rather than critics (or more specifically, people subscribed to an SW channel on Youtube, who are presumably fans). Film critics have their own standards.
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
I haven't seen Solo, so I can't comment on that film, but I would probably rate Attack of the Clones about the same level as The Rise of Skywalker.
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
