What did Gandalf look for in archives of Minas Tirith?

[Jude]

Just having reread the passage in The Council of Elrond, I see that Gandalf guessed that none save he and Saruman had read that particular scroll. Its very existence was not well known, since Gandalf said that none in Gondor remembered that Isildur had written it. So it sounds quite likely that it was misfiled, or at least not filed with the other material concerning Isildur.

And since Saruman had probably also discovered it, it's possible that (warning! wild speculation ahead!!!) he deliberately misfiled it somewhere where it was unlikely to be found.

It is also possible that he was granted access to Denethor's treasury after long expected party.

Yes! Just before his quoting from the manuscript, Gandalf tells of how he suddenly realized that Saruman's knowledge of the Ring had to come from somewhere, and decided to abandon the hunt for Gollum and head back to Gondor. He tells of how Denethor was less welcoming than before, and "grudgingly he permitted me to search among his hoarded scrolls and books".

[scirocco]

So your interpretation to that, scirocco, is that Gandalf made quite a mistake not searching through archives properly.

Well, an error of judgement, anyway. It's just the way he words it at the Council of Elrond.

`What those marks were he had not said. Who now would know? The maker. And Saruman? But great though his lore may be, it must have a source. What hand save Sauron's ever held this thing, ere it was lost? The hand of Isildur alone.
`With that thought, I forsook the chase, and passed swiftly to Gondor.

Once he had the brain-wave that a test might reveal the identity of the Ring, it doesn't seem to have been too difficult to find the Isildur-scroll. So it can't have been too deeply hidden. The criticism of Gandalf comes from the fact it never seems to have occurred to him previously to look in the one place in the last 3000 years where the paths of Men of Minas Tirith and the Ring had crossed, namely records related to Isildur at the battle. You would think that would be the first place he would look.

Perhaps I'm being too harsh. He did look for other stuff about Isildur. He may have just been unlucky in not hitting on the exact right place to look for the scroll. (or see Jude's suggestion).

I am very curious - what was he trying to find? He should have know everything about that battle by then, no? From Elrond, who was there. Why was he searching through archives to find something he already knew? Perhaps trying to find a clue how The One looks?

I agree, it's not obvious (surely Elrond had told him that Isildur had taken the Ring) but I think it's all part of a hunt for the bigger picture, right up to the time of Isildur's death. Elrond was only one participant at the battle; he can't have seen everything.

The Disaster of the Gladden Fields in Unfinished Tales gives the story as one complete sweep, but it was old history, and the facts probably came out gradually and piecemeal to the Denethor-era researchers 3000 years later. The main observers and survivors of Isildur's death were Dúnedain, not Elvish. If there had been a full investigation it would most likely have been by Isildur's kin and the detailed records would be held in Minas Tirith, not Rivendell. So it was quite reasonable for Gandalf to look there, as Faramir says he did.

And since Saruman had probably also discovered it, it's possible that (warning! wild speculation ahead!!!) he deliberately misfiled it somewhere where it was unlikely to be found.

I like it!

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I like it, too!!

[Frelga]

Once he had the brain-wave that a test might reveal the identity of the Ring, it doesn't seem to have been too difficult to find the Isildur-scroll. So it can't have been too deeply hidden. The criticism of Gandalf comes from the fact it never seems to have occurred to him previously to look in the one place in the last 3000 years where the paths of Men of Minas Tirith and the Ring had crossed, namely records related to Isildur at the battle. You would think that would be the first place he would look.

I'd cut him some slack. The brainwave wasn't so much that a test could confirm the identity of the Ring, but that there must have existed a record of this test.

Saruman was the main ring lore nerd and up until then, Gandalf must have taken it for granted that he just knew these things. It's not until much later that it had occurred to him to wonder how Saruman knew them. Probably because Saruman was that annoying kind of a nerd who likes to act all mysterious about his sources and won't admit that all he did was stop by the library .

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Well, Gandalf says that Saruman was the main ring-lord nerd, but Gandalf was an actual Ringbearer. And Varda - Elbereth to the Elves - made it clear back in the beginning that he was the real "first" not Saruman. So I'm not convinced that Gandalf wasn't playing four dimensional chess while everyone else was playing checkers.

[Frelga]

Well, yes, that's a whole other dimension - the fact that Gandalf carried and actively used a Great Ring, which supposedly had some kind of connection to the One Ring, and yet at no point did it appear to provide him with any insight.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Are you sure about that? Cuz I'm not.

[Frelga]

I can't think of any examples, and I'm very curious what you have in mind.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Getting Thorin to bring Bilbo on the Quest of Erebor, for one.

[Jude]

I couldn't find the exact quote, but Gandalf said (years later) something like "a shadow fell on my heart" when he heard that Bilbo had found a ring. Could it be his own ring warning him, or trying to get his attention?

[Jude]

Okay, I found it. He told Frodo that he first became nervous when Bilbo lied about how he had acquired it. Then he started to get more uneasy as Bilbo grew older, and didn't seem to change.

I could be clutching at straws when I suggest that his ring might have been warning him - both of these could be put down to simply being a good observer.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

The mistake that we all tend to make is to treat Gandalf like he was human being (by that I include Elves as well as men). He only seemed like one.

[Frelga]

Getting Thorin to bring Bilbo on the Quest of Erebor, for one.

Do you attribute that to being the Ringbearer? I am inclined to credit what you refer to in the last post - that Gandalf was an agent of the higher power and as such, granted the foresight for recognizing high-impact moves. "You were meant to find it," etc.

However, my take is that he is not necessarily aware of what the impact of the move is ("not even the wise", etc.) and recognizes its importance only in the retrospect.

I could be clutching at straws when I suggest that his ring might have been warning him - both of these could be put down to simply being a good observer.

Yes, that much should have been obvious to a being with a fraction of Ganfalf's experience and knowledge.

What I meant was that being the Ringbearer does not, for example, provide Gandalf with information on Frodo's movements, even though he knows Frodo has the Ring.

Unless we assume that everything Gandalf says is a lie, and that the text does not make it clear at any point, which for me makes for an entirely unsatisfactory narrative.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Getting Thorin to bring Bilbo on the Quest of Erebor, for one.

Do you attribute that to being the Ringbearer? I am inclined to credit what you refer to in the last post - that Gandalf was an agent of the higher power and as such, granted the foresight for recognizing high-impact moves. "You were meant to find it," etc.

However, my take is that he is not necessarily aware of what the impact of the move is ("not even the wise", etc.) and recognizes its importance only in the retrospect.

I agree that it more to do with his being an agent of (and being) a higher power, but I don't see that as separate from his being a Ringbearer.

Now to get yet deeper into metaphysical nonsense, I don't think that Gandalf was limited by time (for that matter, I don't think we are either, but we are not enlightened enough to know it).

[Maria]

And since Saruman had probably also discovered it, it's possible that (warning! wild speculation ahead!!!) he deliberately misfiled it somewhere where it was unlikely to be found.

You are assuming there was any kind of filing system at all. And even if there was one, it might change with each new custodian. "Let's sort them by date!" "Let's sort them by author!" "Let's sort them by size!" with each librarian thinking up a new and better scheme every few years, and in large collections- the new system never being fully implemented due to staffing shortages.......

Things could really get thoroughly lost in that scenario.

[Frelga]

agree that it more to do with his being an agent of (and being) a higher power, but I don't see that as separate from his being a Ringbearer.

That's an interesting thought. However, as a Maia Gandalf presumably had inherent powers, although limited by the incarnated form the Istari took, while other Ringbearers derived their powers from their rings. That said, foresight is certainly not a rare power in Middle-earth and people's hearts are constantly telling them useful things.

Now to get yet deeper into metaphysical nonsense, I don't think that Gandalf was limited by time

When he returns as the White, Gandalf says that he "strayed out of thought and time," which to me suggests that he was bound by time while incarnated.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Or he thought he was. Though I think deep down he knew he wasn't.

[narya]

Nenya and Vilya were used to helped to protect Lothlórien and Rivendell. I wonder if Narya was used to help to protect the Shire and/or the exiled Rangers.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I think Narya was probably used to protect Middle-earth more generally.

[Inanna]

That could also be due to the way the rings were used through centuries. Elrond & Galadriel used theirs to extensively protect a small area; while Gandalf in his wandering ways protected ME with narya, but weakly.