The Shadow of the Past - Gandalf's knowledge

[Eldy]

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Good points! I agree it's not conclusive, but you make a convincing case for the gems comment occurring at the 2851 meeting, given Saruman would presumably be less forthcoming with information later on. Thanks for giving me more to think about!

[Voronwë the Faithful]

My memory of these things is pretty sketchy, but didn't the bearers of the Three Rings sense when the One Ring was around, and didn't Círdan give Narya to Gandalf?

You raise a very interesting point, narya. The only thing that I can think of that implies that the bearers of the Three Rings sense the One is Galadriel's statement that "I perceive the Dark Lord and know his mind, or all of his mind that concerns the Elves." That's not conclusive, but it is certainly suggestive. And you are quite right that Círdan gave Narya to Gandalf, as soon Olórin arrived at the Grey Havens. That raises some very interesting questions. Gandalf says to Frodo about Saruman, "The lore of the Elven-rings, great and small, is his province. He has long studied it, seeking the lost secrets of their making; but when the Rings were debated in the Council, all that he would reveal to us of his ring-lore told against my fears." But Gandalf was a bearer of one of the Elf-rings, as was Galadriel and Elrond. So was Saruman really the one who was the most knowledgeable about Rings of Power? Hmmmm?

[scirocco]

The only thing that I can think of that implies that the bearers of the Three Rings sense the One is Galadriel's statement that "I perceive the Dark Lord and know his mind, or all of his mind that concerns the Elves."

When Sauron forged the One Ring, apparently Celebrimbor "was aware of him, and hid the Three which he had made". We're not told exactly what made Celebrimbor aware, but you would have to assume some sort of "Ring-at-a-distance" effect. Presumably the One Ring started to do what it was designed to do, and somehow "pulled" the Three in some way to try and enslave them.

But exactly how this worked, or if any other bearer of the Three than Celebrimbor would be sensitive to this, we're not told. As for Galadriel's sensitivity to Sauron's presence, we have no way to tell if it was ring-related or not. If it was, surely Gandalf and Elrond would have had the same sensitivity, being the bearers of the other two Elf-rings.

There's just no information.

It does beg the question, though; during the Council of Elrond you had the One Ring and two of the Elf-rings in the same room. Could this have been like a kind of nuclear criticality incident? Do Rings obey an inverse square law?

[narya]

This was a little before Kepler's time.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I'm not sure I have that much more to say, other than agreeing that this is a great discussion and that I am enjoying reading everyone's thoughts.

So, at this point, he does explicitly say that he originally thought that Bilbo's ring was one of the lesser rings. But he also already alludes to the point that Jude makes above. Getting rid of the Ring was hard, and for Gandalf to "force" Bilbo to do so would arguably violate the charge that the Istari were forbidden "to seek to dominate Elves or Men by force and fear" (as it is put in Appendix B). Tolkien seemed to understand this and implicitly imply even back in this early drafting, long before he had any "inkling" of the history of the Istari.

Thanks for that passage! I didn't know about it! However, that is an early draft, which was changed to what we know from the book, where Gandalf says he knew it is a Great Ring. So why did Tolkien change it? It would be much easier with that previous version. Tolkien must had a reason to change that. I just don't it is an editing mistake, since he revised LOTR many times. So what it is then?

The answer is I don't know why he changed it; I think it made more sense the way that he originally had it! When I get a chance I'll take another look at the relevant part of HoME and see if I can find anything that suggests why he made that curious decision.

Revisiting this here before I turn to your new thread. The more I think about it, the more I agree that the fact that Tolkien actually changed the passage from stating that Gandalf originally thought that Bilbo's ring was one of the lesser rings to removing that suggests that it was done intentionally. And to me that suggests only one thing: that Gandalf was intentionally Frodo by hiding what he actually knew. As is suggested in the passage you quote in your other thread, Gandalf as one of the Istari had eminent knowledge about the history and nature of the world. To what extent that extended to Middle-earth before they arrived is debatable, but by the time of Bilbo and Frodo is certainly was true. I don't know what Gandalf achieved by deceiving Frodo, but that is what I believe was happening. And it would not be the first time that Gandalf's actions were obscure. As Tolkien writes in the Valaquenta

But of Olórin that tale does not speak; for though he loved the Elves, he walked among them unseen, or in form as one of them, and they did not know whence came the fair visions or the promptings of wisdom that he put into their hearts. In later days he was the friend of all the Children of Ilúvatar, and took pity on their sorrows; and those who listened to him awoke from despair and put away the imaginations of darkness.

Somehow, Gandalf deceiving Frodo helped him ultimately achieve his goal. I just don't know how.

[scirocco]

But later in that chapter, he says all Great Rings are accounted for. It doesn't make sense to me.

I think it's worth remembering that the story of Middle-earth is told from a "north-western" point of view, centred on the Shire, Gondor and Arnor. From early in the Second Age, well before any Ring-making, that was not Sauron's central point; Mordor was.

So he could have been just as interested in the lands to the east of Mordor as to those of the West. He would become successful at controlling Men with rings in the West and South; why not in the far East?

We know that Sauron established Mordor about the same time that the Istari arrived; and that Saruman (as head of the Order) set up the two Blue Wizards in the East of Middle-earth. You would have to assume that the Valar saw Sauron as just as much of a potential threat there as to the West of Anduin. But we aren't told anything of that storyline.

The point I'm making is, that when Gandalf ticks off all the Rings of Power (for our benefit), he may have been thinking "well, that's just the ones I know about". Gandalf has "eminent knowledge" about "how stuff works"; the nature and elemental forces and innate abilities of the different people and races of Middle-earth, but that doesn't mean he knows every fact and event that has ever occurred, everywhere. And he knows that he doesn't know.

When Bilbo returned to the Shire, all that Gandalf knew about his ring is that it had been found on the eastern border of the North-West of M-E. But you can also think of the Misty Mountains as the western boundary of the Eastern part of M-E. At the time, he would not have wanted to conclusively rule out a Ring of Power from some other group than the Seven and the Nine without further evidence. Clearly, it was a Powerful Ring. But was it a Ring of Power?

70 years later, as the identity of Bilbo's ring became clear, that hesitation would disappear, and the story would subsequently be told that it was a Great Ring from the beginning.

[narya]

Something like the recounting of "history", up until recently, consisting of just Western European history.

[Halifirien]

Revisiting this here before I turn to your new thread. The more I think about it, the more I agree that the fact that Tolkien actually changed the passage from stating that Gandalf originally thought that Bilbo's ring was one of the lesser rings to removing that suggests that it was done intentionally. And to me that suggests only one thing: that Gandalf was intentionally Frodo by hiding what he actually knew. As is suggested in the passage you quote in your other thread, Gandalf as one of the Istari had eminent knowledge about the history and nature of the world. To what extent that extended to Middle-earth before they arrived is debatable, but by the time of Bilbo and Frodo is certainly was true. I don't know what Gandalf achieved by deceiving Frodo, but that is what I believe was happening.

Somehow, Gandalf deceiving Frodo helped him ultimately achieve his goal. I just don't know how.

I am sorry, I am not sure I follow. What do you mean Gandalf was deceiving Frodo by hiding what he actually knew? Can you explain it a little bit more? Thanks!

I am glad I am not the only one who thinks about it and who consider this passage as somehow troublesome.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Gandalf knew more than he told Frodo.

[Halifirien]

Well he knew it is a Great Ring. Possibly one of the Seven or Nine. He chose to wait and not tell anyone, since Sauron could heard that. What is weird to me - why didn't he tell something even to Elrond or Galadriel? They were members of the White Council, Gandalf could trust them, since they were discussing much at the Council, things that were meant to be kept secret. Possible question is - the Ring question is far more dangerous, far more important to be kept secret than other stuff they discussed.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

He knew more than that.

In my opinion, of course.