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 Post subject: Crime and Punishment
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 4:19 pm 
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A rather awful poacher in Missouri has been sentenced (in addition to jail time) to watch the Disney movie "Bambi" once a month.

https://www.columbiatribune.com/news/20 ... atch-bambi

Does this cross the line into cruel and unusual punishment?


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 Post subject: Re: Crime and Punishment
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 5:16 pm 
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No.

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 Post subject: Re: Crime and Punishment
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 5:44 pm 
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No, I would argue absurd and useless. Should have sentenced him to community service working at an animal rehab, rescue, or wildlife facility.

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 Post subject: Re: Crime and Punishment
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 5:55 pm 
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I don't know. I would probably prefer that he wasn't allowed near animals.

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 Post subject: Re: Crime and Punishment
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:07 pm 
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Primula Baggins wrote:
I don't know. I would probably prefer that he wasn't allowed near animals.


Well, supervised...

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 Post subject: Re: Crime and Punishment
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:18 pm 
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I don't think the Bambi-watching will be particularly effective, but that is not the question. I think even asking the question makes a mockery of the 8th Amendment and those (in the U.S. almost always people of color) who actually are subjected to cruel and unusual punishment.

As for this person (and I use the term loosely) I would not have the want to ever subject any animals to his evil presence, even supervised.

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 Post subject: Re: Crime and Punishment
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:51 pm 
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OK, now I'm blushing furiously. I didn't think I'd be accused of mocking anything for asking this question. Well, maybe the Disney corporation. But mocking people who have been cruelly and unusually punished??? Do you really think that of me?

I, personally, really dislike most Disney movies in general and would find a requirement to watch and presumably learn something from them extremely distasteful.

This sort of punishment seems to be the beginning of making brainwashing an accepted part of the law of the land. Maybe I phrased the question poorly in my first post, but the concept is pretty disturbing to me.

The very idea of making treacle like "Bambi" the approved attitude towards wildlife management the standard in our country makes me want to counter with this:



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 Post subject: Re: Crime and Punishment
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:18 pm 
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Cruel and unusual punishment is incarcerating someone for life for stealing a pack of cigarettes, or executing a minor or someone so mentally handicapped that they could not possibly form the requisite intent. It is punishing poverty by indefinitely incarcerating someone who cannot pay his or her debts, or subjecting them to scourging or other forms of extreme corporal punishment. Those are the types of things that can be considered cruel and unusual punishment.

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 Post subject: Re: Crime and Punishment
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:29 pm 
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What do you call attempts to correct behavior by brain washing? Mental conditioning. Whatever you want to call it.

Don't get me wrong, I hate what this guy and his friends did. But I'd rather execute someone than forcibly change their personality.


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 Post subject: Re: Crime and Punishment
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 8:03 pm 
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I understand what you are saying, Maria, and it is actually a bit of an interesting question, if forcible "brainwashing" could be deemed cruel and unusual. But it would be hard to argue that watching a movie once a month could really be considered brainwashing. (I'm not sure if, scientifically speaking, "brainwashing" is a real thing, but if it is, I imagine it'd be a very intense process.)

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 Post subject: Re: Crime and Punishment
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 8:05 pm 
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Voronwë the Faithful wrote:
Cruel and unusual punishment is incarcerating someone for life for stealing a pack of cigarettes...


It is my understanding that there are quite a few people incarcerated for life for minor, petty crimes. I was shocked and horrified to learn the SCOTUS did not deem this "cruel and unusual".

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 Post subject: Re: Crime and Punishment
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 8:07 pm 
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If it's usual, people won't let themselves see it as cruel. This is why public floggings and hangings (and worse) were commonplace in Europe for centuries.

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― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King


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 Post subject: Re: Crime and Punishment
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 8:19 pm 
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yovargas wrote:
Voronwë the Faithful wrote:
Cruel and unusual punishment is incarcerating someone for life for stealing a pack of cigarettes...


It is my understanding that there are quite a few people incarcerated for life for minor, petty crimes. I was shocked and horrified to learn the SCOTUS did not deem this "cruel and unusual".


Me too, yov. Me too. But there certainly is a valid argument that it is cruel and unusual punishment, even if some judges disagree (for the record, I think that any capital punishment should be considered cruel and unusual too, despite the fact that a majority of the Supreme Court disagrees, particularly given how extraordinarily racially disproportionate capital punishment is applied). In contrast, an attorney that tried to make an argument that something like this violated the 8th amendment would likely get sanctioned for making a legal argument with no rational basis.

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 Post subject: Re: Crime and Punishment
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:06 pm 
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I don't like the way Disney humanizes animals. It does not do either animals or people any favours, and leads to people getting into trouble because they expect the animals to behave like humans.

A good example of what I'm trying to say would be the woman who had her face and hands ripped off by a pet chimpanzee. The owner of the chimp didn't understand that adolescent male chimps become extremely dangerous when they reach puberty, and are trying to establish their position in the heirarchy of the chimp troop. She continued to treat it as a human child, and used tranquilizers to try to suppress and control its natural behaviour.

I don't know what I'd consider and appropriate punishment for this poacher, but watching Bambi doesn't really do it for me.

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 Post subject: Re: Crime and Punishment
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:08 pm 
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Sunsilver wrote:
I don't like the way Disney humanizes animals... leads to people getting into trouble because they expect the animals to behave like humans.


Absolutely agree!

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 Post subject: Re: Crime and Punishment
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:27 pm 
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Quote:
You are way more likely to be killed by deer than by sharks, bears, and gators combined

https://www.vox.com/2016/9/24/13032272/ ... arks-bears

Teaching people they are cute, harmless, sweet little things does everyone a disservice.
youtube is full of videos about deer attacks.


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 Post subject: Re: Crime and Punishment
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:01 pm 
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The most dangerous animals in Yellowstone are buffalo.

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― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King


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 Post subject: Re: Crime and Punishment
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 3:27 am 
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The most dangerous animal in Yellowstone is... :Rod Serling face: ...man.


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 Post subject: Re: Crime and Punishment
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 5:51 am 
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Not when he’s up against a buffalo and is armed only with an iPhone and a Budweiser.

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“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King


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 Post subject: Re: Crime and Punishment
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 2:42 pm 
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Bison are terrifying. We went to an exotic animal auction near here once because we were looking for a new bull for our herd and they had about a jillion bison for sale ahead of the cattle. That company has a super strong auction ring set just a few feet away from the bleachers.
Attachment:
Cattle-Ring.jpg
Cattle-Ring.jpg [ 334.56 KiB | Viewed 3308 times ]


People are expected to walk between the ring and the bleachers, and the aisle is only about 3 feet wide.
Just after they let a few HUGE and angry bison into the ring, a person started walking back along the aisle and one of the bison took exception to the person and tried to attack through the ring. There was a huge clash as horns hit metal, but the metal held. Fortunately, the bison's horns didn't get through the ring and hook the person, but it could have happened.

The oblivious person didn't even look around. They didn't have a clue as to what a close call they'd had. The auctioneer did call out a warning for people to stay clear of the ring.... but wow. I would NOT like to encounter one of those in the wild.


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