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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2019 5:36 pm 
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Nibonto Aagun
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They tried to do to Daenerys in two episodes what Breaking Bad did with Walter White over 5 seasons. One was glorious, the other a head-scratcher despite some unremarkable hints in the past seasons.


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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2019 5:39 pm 
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Hobbit
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I suspect the writers were told to make the last episode wrap everything up in such a way that the fans don't annoy the studio by demanding more seasons.

Spoiler: show
I do wonder how the island of Naath is going to support several thousand mercenary soldiers. Even if they don't pay them, that's a lot of mouths to feed.


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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2019 6:28 pm 
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So, if the show went ahead of the book, what about people who were following only the book. Just curious.

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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2019 7:37 pm 
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So we're up to episode 5 in my house. I'll be polite and put this under a spoiler tag.

Spoiler: show
My husband was offended by the end of episode 5, when Arya rides out on a white horse and it's all cinematographic. I admit he has a point. That was not a battle. That was a massacre of a civilian population in a surrendered city. There's no making art of that. Also, he's a bit touchy about aerial assaults on cities for reasons I don't need to get into here.

Having watched, I disagree with those who feel that Dany's turn was sudden. It wasn't. That sort of barbaric cruelty was always in her. She channeled it in ways that made the audience cheer, but she's been talking about burning cities to the ground and she's left ruin behind her all the way through. She torched prisoners in Season 7 for crying out loud. And during the battle with the Night King, when she and Drogon are attacked in the air by an undead Viserion, you can see her start to slide. She was already feeling isolated and alone because of the cold welcome she and hers were receiving in the North and that just kicked her where it hurt the most.

I'm not trying to justify her decisions at all. I'm just saying her tumble into madness didn't come from nowhere. If you look back, the signs were there. We as the audience were willing to let it slide because she talked a good game and for a while her brutality made sense in the context of the world she lived in and her position in it. When your only took is a dragon everything needs a fireball. And none of the characters were willing to acknowledge what she really was until the death of the Tarlys in Season 7 and even then it was pretty much just Tyrion and Varys but the signs were there. Like with anyone who snaps, maybe it was only apparent in hindsight, but the fracture lines were visible.

For myself, I was rooting for her. I was hoping she'd pull back. That she wouldn't burn the whole city down. But she went full Mad Queen.

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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2019 8:45 pm 
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Spoiler: show
To be honest, episode 6 was arguably the best episode of the final three episodes (and maybe even of the entire season). After the never-ending idiotic plot-twists in episodes 3-5, episode 6 pretty much made the best out of what left to work with. But it also made it clear that things would have been considerably better if the story had been set up properly. Seasons 7 and 8 should have been at least 10 episodes each.

The main issue of season 7 and 8 was that most of the main plot lines felt rushed. It is silly to argue how certain characters end up ("no, my favorite character did not just do this!") but the why is essential. Daenerys' ultimate turn into an antagonist felt rushed in earlier episodes but was pretty well executed in this one. Daenerys' arc ultimately serves as a critique of audiences blindly cheering for an enlightened despot. It is as Tyrion said to Jon in his cell: people cheered when she killed the slavers and others that were deemed evil by the show and the audience. To a certain extent, Daenerys' can be understood as a personification of post-cold-war U.S. imperalism: We bring wrath upon the wretched of the earth, but we do it for enlightened purposes. Yet what remains in the end, despite all the good intentions, is the naked will to rule. That (Western) audiences cheered for that, without reflection, and then decried it when the reality of (modern total) war became obvious (the inferno of King's Landing) is a not so subtle reflection of how the citizens of Western countries approach the foreign policy of their politicians.

The biggest overall disappointment was how they concluded the arc about the Others; again - not that everything ended so quickly but that they ultimately only served as a filler. G.R.R. Martin wanted a Scouring of the Shire ending for his work, but contrary to the defeat of Sauron the end of the Long Night felt hollow. Maybe this is what separates a more intellectual writer such as Tolkien from someone like Martin.


Last edited by Beutlin on Mon May 20, 2019 10:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2019 9:51 pm 
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of Vinyamar
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I'll just leave this here :) :whistle: :whistle: :whistle:


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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 5:23 am 
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bioalchemist
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..and done. Initial thoughts below.

Spoiler: show
I do believe that Bran was the only one at that meeting who had not killed anyone, either by direct action or by giving the order. I could be wrong. If he did kill someone, it was in self-defense. The Small Council at the end was priceless. I got the feeling that the only one in that room who had even the foggiest notion of what to do with themselves around that table was Tyrion. I think it would be fun to have a series of mini episodes of just Bran's Small Council meetings.

Also, I like how Sansa first shut Edmure down hard and then, after Bran was made king, just up and declared independence. Bran gave it to her without flinching and everyone else was like "Oh crap, can she do that? Goddamit, why didn't I think of that before I pledged loyalty."

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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 3:34 pm 
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Hobbit
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Spoiler: show
Bran certainly ruined Hodor's life, though.


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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 4:00 pm 
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I miss Prim ...
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And...

[spoiler]
... remember how callously indifferent he was about the vast sacrifice the girl who saved him up North had made?

I genuinely think he was the worst choice of all the living characters, both from the perspective of simply trying to tell a satisfying story, as well as whether he would be actually good at the job. It was just about the dumbest of all possible endings, IMO.
[/quote]

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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 8:27 pm 
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Ni Dieu, ni maître
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Spoiler: show
Several small remarks: I did not find Dans turn really sudden. never really liked her since Merken and was rather glad that finally people started to see her (and show her) for what she really was. To me her character was rather like a reminder of Robespierre - the enlightener who became a tyrant.

Bran as a king: I think that actually they chose him because he would not make a strong leader in many ways- Nobody really had anything against him and that was the best thing they got in this moment. I watched it in Switzerland in a cinema and when Tyrion says: "Nobody is really happy with it, but we all can live with it (about Jon's punishment), the Swiss audience laughed, because this is the definition of Swiss politics... Elected kings and emperors have existed in history, so that's not impossible.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:05 am 
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Well.. I'm waaay late in finding this thread.

I agree River, Danys turn was not sudden, her entitlement and ruthlessness has been woven in the story throughout.

On Bran... I'm willing to wait to see what George RR Martin does with the character. I'm kinda torn on my opinion on how the show ended. I think the books will be a lot different since the show left out a great many things that will (likely) be instrumental to the ending; the history, lore, and mythology of the Isle of Faces and the Green Men, for example. The show paired down elements of the story that made the final season thin from a storytelling perspective. The show writers didn't sign up to write the story and (I presume) they presumed that more of the story would be written (10 years later) for them to work with. No one is going to be able to tell the story the way George can.


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