The Hall of Fire DoS Review Thread

[Smaug's voice]

[anthriel]

Very cool, Smaug's Voice.

Happy New Year, everyone! (Good to see you, sf!)

[Passdagas the Brown]

Very clever! But isn't it 2014?

Whatever year it is, I hope you all have a happy one!

[Passdagas the Brown]

For Tolkien nuts like me, there are little bits here and there in DOS that are intriguing, even if PJ and company didn't intend them.

For example, PJ probably turned the "last light of Durin's Day" to moonlight, rather than sunlight, for dramatic effect. It allowed Bilbo to "shine" (pun intended) for being clever enough to get it. This was a debatable move, as it was nearly unbelievable that the dwarves would simply give up after 6 hours of film, but there you go.

However, something about me responds to it well for a very specific reason, which likely has nothing to do with PJ's intentions. I know from the Book of Lost Tales II (page 286) that Tolkien conceived of a story where the sun lost its enchantment when it traveled under the earth, because Ungoliant was there to ensnare it with her webs. The moon was not subjected to this treatment (as it traveled a different path) and so the moon is the only enchanted heavenly body of the two.

In this context, the fact that moonlight, rather than sunlight, would break the magic on the secret door, feels like Tolkien!

What I guess I am saying is that because I am so immersed in the various alternative paths Tolkien may have taken with his mythology, I am able to appreciate certain deviations that some purists find objectionable...

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Even I think that one is a stretch.

[Passdagas the Brown]

As I said, I don't at all believe that PJ intended it!

However, we do know that the idea of the moon as enchanted, and the sun as "disenchanted" by Ungoliant, was something Tolkien thought of (and wrote down) at some point.

So it is certainly "Tolkienian," in a sense, that only the moonlight would work on the enchanted door. Which is, incidentally, consistent with the other "magic" featured in the Hobbit - that of the "moon runes."

Furthermore, moonlight, across many faery stories and mythologies (the most familiar being werewolf lore), is often viewed as a more magic and ethereal light than the sunlight.

So while PJ was likely thinking about Bilbo's arc here, the result has a mythic resonance to it.

[yovargas]

If only you were willing to use this kind of...um, let's call it logic...on the rest of the series.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

As I said, I don't at all believe that PJ intended it!

However, we do know that the idea of the moon as enchanted, and the sun as "disenchanted" by Ungoliant, was something Tolkien thought of (and wrote down) at some point.

So it is certainly "Tolkienian," in a sense, that only the moonlight would work on the enchanted door. Which is, incidentally, consistent with the other "magic" featured in the Hobbit - that of the "moon runes."

Furthermore, moonlight, across many faery stories and mythologies (the most familiar being werewolf lore), is often viewed as a more magic and ethereal light than the sunlight.

So while PJ was likely thinking about Bilbo's arc here, the result has a mythic resonance to it.

I agree, and they may well have been thinking about the mythic resonance of moonlight on some level.

[Passdagas the Brown]

If only you were willing to use this kind of...um, let's call it logic...on the rest of the series.

I do, and it's behind some of what I appreciate about the LOTR films, primarily on a visual level.

But my problem with LOTR isn't its purism or lack thereof. My problem with it is its emotional mawkishness and tonal inconsistency. That series constantly beats me over the head with the demand that I react emotionally, yet gives me few compelling reasons to feel that way.

And the more I think about it, the more I believe it has a lot to do with the acting as well. I simply do not like most of the characters in that series. McKellen's Gandalf and Urban's Éomer are perhaps the only ones I actually enjoy watching. Otherwise, the rest are either dull as dishwater (eg Frodo, unlike his dry-witted book counterpart) or incredibly annoying (eg. Merry, Pippin, Sam... ).

Sitting through their journeys just ain't no fun.

[yovargas]

...incredibly annoying...

I'm sorry, I believe you made a typo cuz the correct way to spell that is "charming"....

[Voronwë the Faithful]

While I still think I enjoy the LOTR films (and AUJ) more than PtB, I must say that I have come to a largely similar opinion about them, although I still appreciate the searing beauty in many of the scenes in all three of the films (no, all four, including AUJ in its own way). I just don't think they are as good as DoS, for the very reasons that he describes.

Edited to add: I just hope that Jackson trusts his actors in TABA as much as he did in DoS (and to a large extent in AuJ, because my problems with that film don't have as much to do with the acting as with the LOTR films).

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I saw it for a fourth and final time today (making it the most that I have ever seen any film in a theater). I liked it just as much, I have to say. Once again I was particularly struck by the way the most emotional scenes were set up not with loud music but rather with complete silence. The entrance to Erebor. The discovery of the last of their kin. And Bilbo's last "what have we done". These are some of the examples that stick out in my mind.

And I was really struck by the mythic resonance of the moonlight. That scene actually gave me chills.

Edit: Does anyone know what Thorin says just before they remove the mold and reveal the (stunning) golden statue? Something in Khuzdul?

[Smaug's voice]

I loved the moonlight too.
It actually fits since throughout LotR and TH dwarves have been associated with moonlight more than sunlight. The doors of Durin, the map. Mithril being more like silver in appearance than gold.

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

For Tolkien nuts like me, there are little bits here and there in DOS that are intriguing, even if PJ and company didn't intend them.

... I know from the Book of Lost Tales II (page 286) that Tolkien conceived of a story where the sun lost its enchantment when it traveled under the earth, because Ungoliant was there to ensnare it with her webs. The moon was not subjected to this treatment (as it traveled a different path) and so the moon is the only enchanted heavenly body of the two.

In this context, the fact that moonlight, rather than sunlight, would break the magic on the secret door, feels like Tolkien!

There is a possibility that some of the changes, additions, skipped scenes, whatever, have been made for reasons similar to what you describe. I'm not suggesting yours is spot-on but it may be.

The writers are not allowed to reference anything outside The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings as published. This prevents them including dialogue or action derived from any other publications but it doesn't prevent them using the whole breadth of Tolkien's work for inspiration.

I didn't think I was prone to conspiracy theories but, taking Elentári's post as a starting point, finding the justification for PJ's changes in Tolkien's other works could open up a whole new aspect of the films. Or it could be just another Wizard of Oz/Dark Side of the Moon disappointment. :)

[Voronwë the Faithful]

It actually fits since throughout LotR and TH dwarves have been associated with moonlight more than sunlight

Which was highlighted in Kili's (lovely) conversation with Tauriel (which may well have the best original -- e.g. not based directly on Tolkien -- dialogue in all of the five films).

[Dave_LF]

Which unfortunately is not saying all that much.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

No, it isn't. The only comparable scene that I can think of is Aragorn and Galadriel in FOTR, and that was only in the EE.

[kzer_za]

What about Elrond telling Arwen of Aragorn's fate (and eventually hers)? Well, it depends on what you mean by "based in the book."

The starlight conversation reminds me of Legolas and Gimli's relationship in the book, by the way.

[Passdagas the Brown]

Yeah, though that information is not revealed in the same way in the book, the language and the idea comes straight from it.

I do think that the scriptwriters did a decent enough job with the invented Bard material.

And I found Bard's daughters' exclamation "will they bring us luck!?" as the dwarves emerged from the toilet, to be quite funny...

That's the other thing. The humor in DOS worked a lot better than anything in LOTR (as did the humor in early AUJ).

[kzer_za]

I also like Aragorn and Frodo's little encounter at Amon Hen after Boromir goes for the Ring.

I do think that the scriptwriters did a decent enough job with the invented Bard material.

And I found Bard's daughters' exclamation "will they bring us luck!?" as the dwarves emerged from the toilet, to be quite funny...

That's the other thing. The humor in DOS worked a lot better than anything in LOTR (as did the humor in early AUJ).

I do agree that DoS has better humor (trousers line aside), and the girl delivered "Why are dwarves coming out of our toilet?" just right. Well, I thought most of FotR's humor was decent enough - it's the next two movies where PJ really goes wild.