The New Testament: Orthodoxy and Heresy

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Túrin Turambar
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Post by Túrin Turambar »

Lalaith wrote: What do you mean specifically, and I'll attempt to give an answer. (Though I must warn you that, although I attend a Baptist church, I do not consider myself Baptist. So you might get an atypical Protestant response.)
Most Protestant Churches (in my experience) argue that salvation does not come from good works or from following the law as Jesus’ death for their sins can save them alone (although they disagree on whether this salvation is universal, conditional on free will or conditional on predestination, which we’ll get onto). In other words, justification is purely through faith rather than good conduct (although it is assumed that the latter flows from the former). This is usually supported by one of these verses:

Romans 3:28: “A man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.”

Romans 5:1: “Therefore, being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Galatians 2:16: “A man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ.”

Ephesians 2:8: “For by grace are ye saved through faith.”

Romans 10:9: “If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.”

John 3:16: “Whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

John 3:36: “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life.”

The ones with the clearest support for this view were all written by Paul – and Romans 3:28 and Galatians 2:16 go so far as to directly contradict what Jesus himself says in Matthew 19:21, Luke 18:22 and half a dozen other verses about the need to follow Mosaic Law. And even more oddly, Paul contradicts his own advice in Romans 2:6, where he says justification is through the law, or 2 Corinthians 11:15, where he says it through works. Indeed, it’s worth noting that different churches seemed to follow the different advice they were given – the doctrine of conditional salvation through faith had its strongest support in the first and second century in the Roman Church, unsurprising given Paul pushes that line in his letter to the Romans. In fact, I have to wonder how Paul’s Epistles ever ended up getting accepted as canonical at all.

The other two verses come from John, the ‘odd Gospel out’, and are more open to interpretation (they could suggest that you simply need to believe in what Jesus says). And as far as I can tell, John 3:16 is John’s own opinion rather than Jesus’ actual words.
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"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." Matthew 24:36
Interesting to see Jesus saying that he doesn't actually know. But the Father does. Makes wrapping your head around the concept of the Trinity extra fun. As usual. :P
We'll get on to the Arian Heresy after we finish with salvation and damnation ;).

BTW, before this party gets carried away, we already have a thread on priestly celibacy.
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MithLuin
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Post by MithLuin »

Yeah, because if you have to explain the Trinity by explaining the hypostatic union of Jesus' soul (he was fully human and fully divine...and not schizophrenic)... it is easy to get tangled up in the theological implications of these mysteries. The early Church councils had some rather heated debates on these fundamental ideas of Christianity.


No worries, Di - the Catholic Church does not consider celibacy a 'superior' calling. The "better" vocation for a particular person is always the one he or she is called to. Now, there have been certain people throughout church history who have valued celibacy/virginity so highly that as far as they were concerned, the only purpose of marriage was to make more virgins ;). But that view is a bit narrow. The pending canonization of Louis and Zelie Martin suggests that there is nothing wrong with people dropping out of seminary and/or novitiate and getting married. St. Therese's parents both considered religious life, but it didn't work out for them. Zelie Geurin wanted very much to enter the cloister. She tried to enter a Visitation Convent, but was turned away (likely because of poor respiratory health). She became a lacemaker to support herself, a business which she continued as a wife and mother. Louis Martin was turned away from an Augustinian monastery because he did not know Latin. He spent a year trying to learn, but eventually had to give it up and resume his work as a watchmaker. Considering their background, it is not all that surprising that when they met and married, they agreed to live a celibate life for the first 10 months of their marriage. A confessor advised them that they should consider the vocation of parents, as well, and so they consummated their marriage and lived as a normal married couple for the remainder of their years. They had 5 daughters who survived childhood (3 other children died as infants, and one daughter died of sickness at age 5). Therese was the youngest child, and she became one of the most famous saints - the Little Flower. All 5 daughters became nuns some time after their mother's death; 4 of them Carmelites, and 1 a Visitation sister.


But that was me drifting off topic, wasn't it? Not really, though. Joining the Kingdom of Heaven and becoming a saint are really the same thing, which is why it is a 'both now and later' situation. It's...life. It's the choices we make. It's doing God's will. It's loving our neighbor. All of that is 'the Kingdom of God.' Holiness can be very elusive, but it is found neither exclusively in the cloister nor in the home. It is found in prayer and suffering and surrender and wisdom and humility and desire. Hoping for the New Jerusalem does not mean that there is nothing here for us now, but that we are living this life with an awareness of a final hope. Marana tha! Come, Lord Jesus :).


I wanted to comment on your idea of "collective salvation," Lord M. In some ways, that is true - as part of the communion of saints, we can help one another along in both concrete and mysterious ways. We are bound together by prayer and shared experiences and acts of mercy, but even more intimately by the Holy Spirit. The reason "they neither marry nor are given in marriage" in heaven is that by partaking in the life of the Trinity, those in heaven are in perfect communion with one another as well. No one loses their individual self, but we know as we are fully known...at least, as much as we have capacity for. And we certainly experience that here as well, with the idea that no man is an island - no one learns the meaning of love of neighbor "alone," which is why monasteries only allowed very mature, advanced monks to try out the vocation of hermit ;).

But there is a danger in taking the idea of "collective salvation" too far. You cannot acheive salvation by proxy or proximity. In other words, while it may be a blessing to my whole family for my father to be ordained, his faith isn't automatically 'transferred' to his children. He can't cover for us - we have to work that out on our own. God doesn't have any grandchildren - He has children. The idea of inheriting the kingdom comes with the idea of becoming children of God...personally. It's not that some people become celibate to 'make up for' those who don't...it's that the entire Church receives blessings from the lives of consecrated persons, just as the entire Church receives blessings from the witness of the lives of married persons as well. Each member contributes to the Church, but we each have a different part to play in the Body of Christ. We are all called to give ourselves, as a gift...but that gift can take different forms. Poverty *is* meant for everyone. Jesus' advice to the rich young man was made out of compassion. The guy was earnest and good...but attachment to possessions can make you dead inside. He did not seem to love. Even if we don't all do the 'go, sell all that you have' thing, we learn something of that detachment and generosity in the idea of 'share the wealth' like the early Christians who held their belongings in common. Whatever you do for the least of these....that matters. In the end, it may be the only thing that matters - true religion is to care for widows and orphans. The idea of extreme poverty is to live on God's providence. Relying on God and trusting in him - that's faith. The wealthier you are, the healthier you are...the easier it is to trust in your own strength. Little children trust their parents. There isn't only one way to live in poverty, but part of the idea of being a Christian is to recognize that all that we have comes from God. Job's prayer: "The Lord gives and the Lord takes away; blessed be the name of the Lord."


Again, I feel the need to add caveats to my post. I am trying to explain...succinctly. I am perhaps stating myself a bit too forcefully when speaking about mysteries that have many nuances to them. And, I am speaking for myself, not for everyone who has ever read the Bible and decided that Jesus was on to something.... In other words, I am saying some things as I would say them when discussing these ideas with people who were also on my wavelength. I realize that Low Church Anglicanism and Roman Catholicism are not on the same wavelength about all of these things. So, I know it sounds weird ;). It sounds a bit weird to my evangelical Protestant friends, too. I'm skipping a lot of the explanations.

But I guess I have appreciated for a long time that my church doesn't say that everyone has to get married, and even though marriage is a great good...it's not like it's the only way to live for God. And, I guess, this recognizes that there are some conflicts between living radically and being responsible for a family. But it's not like Catholics have a monopoly on that insight; Rich Mullins could be a vagabond specifically because he did not have a family to tie him down. The movie about his life is called "Homeless Man." His song You Did Not Have a Home (3:50-6:30) reminded me very much of St. Francis, who is one of the people in history who I think came closest to imitating the life of Jesus. I shared that song with one the Franciscans I know, and he liked it very much ;). But here is a snippet of what Rich Mullins said at that concert in Texas. I think this is a good snapshot of what Christianity is all about: Rich Mullins on the Psalms and 'feeling close to God'. I am not sure what his church background was, but I know he wasn't Catholic. He was just a radical Christian. He died in a car crash not long after this concert; the song 'Homeless Man' was never recorded in a studio.



Edit - Okay, sorry Lord M! No more on celibacy...really. I can restrain myself :). I will say, though, that my sister loves marriage and children. She isn't joining a group of sisters because of any dislike for that. Poverty is perhaps a topic that can be more widely discussed, anyway.
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Post by Frelga »

It sounds a bit weird to my evangelical Protestant friends, too. I'm skipping a lot of the explanations.
You wouldn't even believe how fascinating it sounds to this Jewish poster.

Very interesting discussion folks. Carry on, I'll chime in at some point.
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Post by Lurker »

Romans 3:28: “A man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.”

Romans 5:1: “Therefore, being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Galatians 2:16: “A man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ.”
I'm not as well versed as Mith but I will give you my own interpretation. For me works or deeds of the law here is being a law abiding citizen. A law abiding citizen who pays his taxes on time, votes, follow traffic rules etc... doesn't necessarily have to give alms to the poor, volunteer your time to the church or loving your neighbors or curing sick or visiting prisoners.

In fact in Matthew 22:21 Jesus said "Give to Ceasar, what is Ceasar's and to God what is God's.", right? You are being justified by faith if you follow God's law which goes beyond the law of man.
Romans 10:9: “If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.”

John 3:16: “Whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

John 3:36: “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life.”
My interpretation of everlasting life here is not giving up hope even if you are faced with the most difficult trials. Most people who are non-believers readily gives up hope even commit suicide because there is nothing beyond this mortal life for them. Jesus here is a symbol of hope, he suffured, died and rose again. We too will suffer, die and will rise again in heaven. Thus whoever believes in the resurrection will just shed their human body but their soul will live forever in heaven (everlasting life).
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Post by MithLuin »

Pssst, Lurker, we're Catholic - everybody knows we go in for faith and works. It's those sola scriptura, sola fidei people you've got to watch out for ;).

Just kidding. But I do think it only fair to let Lalaith or others answer first.

Gah, but now that I am replying already, I feel the need to slip in another Bible passage. Sorry, sorry! But I don't think this one should be neglected, and the context matters. It is also one that all flavors of Christians agree to pretty readily.
But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.



Ephesians 2:4-10
John and Paul were theologians, while the writers of the synoptics were closer to biographers. So it is true that some of what Paul says is "new" - he is interpreting and developing ideas about the significance of the events of Jesus' life. But the community at Ephesus was pretty well developed, so he wasn't giving them the bare-bones gospel message. He was a bit more nuanced with them. Not like the Corinthians, anyway, where you get the impression he is tearing his hair out and saying, listen, just try to live a new life? Please? It is true that if Paul's writings didn't make their way into the Bible, some of his ideas probably would have been argued over at those councils.
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Post by Túrin Turambar »

Lurker wrote: I'm not as well versed as Mith but I will give you my own interpretation. For me works or deeds of the law here is being a law abiding citizen. A law abiding citizen who pays his taxes on time, votes, follow traffic rules etc... doesn't necessarily have to give alms to the poor, volunteer your time to the church or loving your neighbors or curing sick or visiting prisoners.

In fact in Matthew 22:21 Jesus said "Give to Ceasar, what is Ceasar's and to God what is God's.", right? You are being justified by faith if you follow God's law which goes beyond the law of man.
But that’s generally not what the law means in this context. References to the law here are almost always to Mosaic Law. Paul was famous for opening up Christianity to non-Jews by suggesting that you didn’t need to follow Jewish (ie. Old Testament) Law to be a Christian. I’m suggesting that that is directly contradictory to what Jesus himself says about following the laws and commandments.
Lurker wrote: Thus whoever believes in the resurrection will just shed their human body but their soul will live forever in heaven (everlasting life).
That’s my interpretation of what Paul says (and the interpretation of Christians in general). However, I’m wondering why they follow Paul’s words there and not Jesus’ about the importance of upholding Old Testament law.
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Post by Lurker »

But Mith eventhough I am Catholic when I was a kid my Aunt who was a university student at that time (was babysitting me) is a Baptist and she often took me to Baptist Sunday School classes. (My parents approved it. They said it will help my Christian formation/foundation. :) I go to Catholic mass Saturday evenings.) The pastors never said that you will be saved by faith alone. I swear!!! I attended Baptist Church for 4 years until my Aunt graduated and left our home.

The words being saved by faith alone is often on the lips of Born Again Christians not mainstream Protestants I think. Can Lali or the others confirm this for me. Thanks.
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Post by MithLuin »

Actually, you even get the body back ;). Christians believe in the resurrection of the body - it's in the Apostle's Creed, right before life everlasting. This ties into what Jesus' resurrection is all about - it's not just that our souls survive death, it's that we end up re-embodied somehow.

But to be fair, we did steal the idea from Job [possibly] (and the Pharisees [def]):
I know that my Redeemer lives,
and that in the end he will stand upon the earth.

And after my skin has been destroyed,
yet in my flesh I will see God;

I myself will see him
with my own eyes—I, and not another.
How my heart yearns within me!

Job 19:25-27a
Sola fidei has roots in the Reformation. Certainly, the 'faith vs. works' argument has been hashed out between Lutherans and Catholics many times in the past 400 years or so. I think we've come to some sort of understanding on it - true faith includes works anyway, so it's a little silly to talk about faith 'alone.' And we agree that Pelagius is a heretic - there is no salvation by brownie points. So...def. room for common ground, and this nutshell does justice to no one. As to what Baptists teach - if I am not mistaken, the emphasis is on accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior? Ie, a statement of faith.


I agree that the Law being referred to is Mosaic, not civil. But while Jesus did speak highly of the Mosaic Law, he was not uncritical of it, either. He did warn against a legalistic approach (whitewashed tomb syndrome) and occassionally pointed out where God trumped Moses. "Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so." in Matthew 19:8 is a reference to Genesis 2:22 "Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh."

This does not always conflict with what Paul is saying, either. In Galatians he claims, "The entire law is summed up in a single command: 'Love your neighbor as yourself,'" and in Romans that "love is the fulfillment of the law." In Matthew 22 (and Mark 12), Jesus says, " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." (James agrees with both of them, by the way). It is true that Paul did not find circumcision to be a necessary pre-requisite for baptism.


Must....stop...replying...
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Post by Primula Baggins »

You'd better not stop replying, Mith. This is fascinating!

Just wanted to say, for Lurker, that the world being saved by grace through faith is a very, very old Protestant notion (Martin Luther had a great deal to say about it), and that many mainstream traditions including my own Lutheran tradition come from that. I am not familiar enough with evangelical churches to speak for their members, but from what I have seen, there is often more emphasis on works there than in the "mainstream" Protestant churches.

As for what Baptists believe, there are Baptists and Baptists. Some are pretty much mainstream Protestant. Others are conservative evangelical. And other still . . . Mr. Prim grew up in a church with nominal ties to being Baptist that was actually Mennonite/Amish at the root; older women wore black dresses and black bonnets to church, and for many years the only music allowed was the human voice (bringing in an organ caused a schism in the congregation).
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
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Post by Túrin Turambar »

Luther argued that good works would come naturally from being filled with the Holy Spirit upon being saved. He also suggested that those not filled with the Holy Spirit were not capable of true good works, only imitations of them. Therefore, salvation is through faith alone, as good works are ancillary to having faith. Luther disliked the Book James because it declares that ‘faith without good works is dead’ (please take my word for it, I don’t feel inclined to find chapter and verse) and would have liked to axe it from the Bible, but the precedents for its use were too strong.

I would suggest that the doctrine of substitionary atonement (ie. Jesus paid the penalty for your sins completely, so you need do nor further righteous acts) is what links all mainstream Protestant Churches. The difference is in whether that comes on the condition of believing in Jesus’ sacrifice and having faith in his ability to save you (the Lutheran position, shared by Baptists and most others), whether it comes from God choosing you and giving it to you as a free gift (the Calvinist position), or whether you get it unconditionally, no matter what you do, no strings attached, no further repayments until 2013, every child wins a prize (the Universalist position held by some liberal churches). It’s assumed that you will try to do good works if you are saved simply for love of God, but salvation itself does not depend on it.

The Eastern Churches reject that, and teach that salvation comes from an alternative doctrine called Theosis (I don’t know how it works, read Wikipedia). The Catholic position is based on substitutionary atonement, but has other elements (our Catholics here could explain it better than I could).
Mith wrote: This does not always conflict with what Paul is saying, either. In Galatians he claims, "The entire law is summed up in a single command: 'Love your neighbor as yourself,'" and in Romans that "love is the fulfillment of the law." In Matthew 22 (and Mark 12), Jesus says, " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." (James agrees with both of them, by the way). It is true that Paul did not find circumcision to be a necessary pre-requisite for baptism.
Paul does say that, but Jesus doesn’t ;).
Mith wrote: Must....stop...replying...
Why?
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Post by Pearly Di »

MithLuin wrote:But that was me drifting off topic, wasn't it? Not really, though. Joining the Kingdom of Heaven and becoming a saint are really the same thing, which is why it is a 'both now and later' situation. It's...life. It's the choices we make. It's doing God's will. It's loving our neighbor. All of that is 'the Kingdom of God.' Holiness can be very elusive, but it is found neither exclusively in the cloister nor in the home. It is found in prayer and suffering and surrender and wisdom and humility and desire. Hoping for the New Jerusalem does not mean that there is nothing here for us now, but that we are living this life with an awareness of a final hope.
That's beautiful, Mith. Really profound. :) I totally agree.
Lord_Morningstar wrote:Luther disliked the Book James because it declares that ‘faith without good works is dead’ (please take my word for it, I don’t feel inclined to find chapter and verse) and would have liked to axe it from the Bible, but the precedents for its use were too strong.
Luther said some goofy things at times. ;)

I don't really have time to wade into this right now but an aspect of the tension between faith and works in Christian thought can be illustrated by two fictional characters: the outwardly faithful Catholic guy who goes to Mass every week and then goes home and beats his wife and abuses his children, and the strict Calvinist who insists on doctrinal purity and the importance of Sola Scriptura but has a foul temper and also goes home and beats his wife and abuses his children.

(I apologise for the sexism. :blackeye: There's no real reason why my hypothetical examples have to be men, of course. :D )

Both my hypothetical 'whited sepulchres' are missing the point (tragically for their wife and kids. :( )

And, likely, missing the Kingdom.

At the same time, it's all too easy to point fingers at somebody else ... but certainly someone who claims to be a Christian should show some evidence of that, in their lives, and it should be a lot more than just talking about it.
Lurker wrote:The words being saved by faith alone is often on the lips of Born Again Christians not mainstream Protestants I think. Can Lali or the others confirm this for me. Thanks.
Well, many 'born again Christians' would self-identify as mainstream Protestants. ;) Since they would regard themselves as part of the orthodox Christian stream since apostolic times. Obviously evangelicalism is a very wide umbrella, and has some weird bedfellows to boot (no doubt the hateful Westboro Baptist gang would claim to be 'Born Again' - ugh). I know a lot of British evangelicals who dislike the term 'Born Again' because of the way this phrase was hijacked by a political agenda two decades ago: I think it ruined the phrase for a lot of sincere evangelicals, actually. However, all Protestant evangelicals I know lay emphasis on the conversion experience as being 'born again' by the Spirit of God, i.e. God changing you from the inside out. The phrase 'born again' comes from John 3, in Nicodemus's conversation with Jesus.

The doctrine of 'faith alone' gives hope for people like the penitent thief who basically did nothing in his life to deserve the love and mercy Jesus showed to him as he was dying.

I don't have the energy to go into theological differences between Catholics and Protestants but surely we would all agree that grace is primarily God's initiative. 8)

At the same time, faith without works really is kind of a no-brainer. Because someone who claims to be a Christian surely should be showing some evidence of that in their lives.

The penitent thief's simple, desperate, agonised faith in Jesus was enough.
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Post by Túrin Turambar »

Pearly Di wrote: I don't have the energy to go into theological differences between Catholics and Protestants but surely we would all agree that grace is primarily God's initiative.
I would say not necessarily. Some churches (the Baptists for example) are strong believers in the need of individual members of the church to lead others to Christ (I’m trying to think of a better, more unique term for this doctrine than ‘the missionary position’, but that’s what it is), and in the need for each individual to accept salvation of their own will.
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Post by Lalaith »

Lord_Morningstar wrote: (I’m trying to think of a better, more unique term for this doctrine than ‘the missionary position’, but that’s what it is), and in the need for each individual to accept salvation of their own will.
:rofl: I'm going to start using that term at church!

(Usually, it's called personal evangelism, or we're supposed to be ambassadors for Christ or to witness to people--all of those phrases.)

Okay, I will respond seriously as soon as possible. I don't have time this morning, but I'm hoping to have time this afternoon or evening!
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Post by MithLuin »

Oh, I have no intention of leaving the conversation. I just felt that me jumping in and saying what Luther said or explaining Protestant positions would be silly when there were real live Protestants around to respond ;).

Christianity is an evangelical religion. Christ instructed us to "go and make disciples of all nations," and that injuncture is tied to the elusive Kingdom we were discussing earlier. So, sharing the good news of the gospel is part of our job, but conversion of heart is by the power of God. In other words, salvation is up to the Holy Spirit, but humans respond to that invitation...or don't. So, we do get a choice in the matter.

Keep in mind that both Peter and Paul had visions that let them know that their understanding of the Law was going to have to change. For Peter, it was the idea that all animals were now clean to eat. For Paul, the vision was of the resurrected Christ, who taught him to identify with Jesus with the Church. It was fairly inevitable that Christianity was going to expand beyond Judaism, though that didn't happen in Jesus' lifetime. He specifically was sent to the Jews.

*dashing*
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Post by Lalaith »

What do Baptists believe? Ugh. It's really a hard question in some ways, not the least of which because I don't subscribe to typical Baptist beliefs and many Baptists may say one thing and just not realize they also believe the other.

For example, if you asked a typical Baptist, "How does I get to heaven?" you would probably get a reply of, "by believing in Jesus" or "asking Jesus into your heart," "if you confess with your mouth and believe with your heart you will be saved," "put your faith in Jesus," "ask Jesus to be your personal Savior," etc. You get the point. So, if the Baptist had any theological knowledge at all, they would be likely to say "sola fide."

However, if you dig deeper into the faith vs. works issue, you'd probably get the answer of "true faith produces works, otherwise it's not true faith." Then you have a situation where the two are connected and cannot be separated. How then can you say "sola fide"? It is, but it isn't.

Salvation is through faith (by the mercy of God); you can't ever do enough to earn your way into heaven by your own merit. But you won't have a genuine, saving faith without having good works as well. Those good works had better be evident or else you have to question the validity of your salvation. So, as usual with God, you have a paradox of sorts or at least a tightrope that must be walked in order not to fall into putting more weight on the one over the other. (Saying that makes me wonder if this is part of the narrow road Jesus referred to. ??)

It's liberating to realize that no amount of good work you do will get you into heaven. When I fail, I know God still loves me just the same. But it's also sobering to realize that God calls us to do hard things on an ongoing basis. (It's hard to not be selfish. It's hard to pour yourself out for a particular ministry. It's hard to follow certain passages of Scripture in an attempt to not sin.)

To directly answer Lurker's question, I would say that you would be very unlikely to actually hear a Baptist say "sola fide." ;) You might hear a Baptist say "salvation is through faith and not works," however. (I could say that, too, but I would then have to go into the explanation I gave above how this is separating two things that can't really be separated. It is a paradox of God, imo.) IOW, "Lord, here I am. Only You can save me through Your mercy and sacrifice! I believe in You. Now, how shall I live for You?"
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yovargas
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Post by yovargas »

So, as usual with God, you have a paradox of sorts or at least a tightrope that must be walked in order not to fall into putting more weight on the one over the other.
As an ex-Protestant, this is one that always seemed pretty clear to me, not paradoxical at all. "Good works" are just a symptom of good faith. To use a weird analogy, imagine if it'd been said only people with colds can go to heaven. Well, sneezing is a symptom of a cold so if your not sneezing you might be in trouble. But just cuz you're sneezing doesn't mean you have a cold. Maybe you just have allergies. In that case, you can sneeze all day long but you ain't gettin' into heaven till you catch that virus! :P
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Lalaith
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Post by Lalaith »

:) True.

What I mean, though, is that to lean too heavily one way or the other leads to bad theology, imo. If you lean too heavily toward sola fide, then you have ideas like, "You can have faith in Jesus and then do whatever the heck you want with the rest of your life! You just have to believe in him, and that's it." The Bible even cautions about this, saying that Satan and the demons believe in God. Obviously, there has to be more than just a mental assent in God's existence.

Or, you lean too far the other way, and you think that you can get into heaven by being good, moral, and all of that. You just have to try really hard and hope you'll make it--be weighed on the scales and found to have more good than bad, if you will. The problem with that, imo, is then what's the point of Jesus dying on the cross and all of that? If it's possible for us as individuals to work our way into heaven, then we don't need salvation through Jesus.
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nerdanel
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Post by nerdanel »

Lalaith wrote:Or, you lean too far the other way, and you think that you can get into heaven by being good, moral, and all of that. You just have to try really hard and hope you'll make it--be weighed on the scales and found to have more good than bad, if you will. The problem with that, imo, is then what's the point of Jesus dying on the cross and all of that? If it's possible for us as individuals to work our way into heaven, then we don't need salvation through Jesus.
See, but from the standpoint of a non-Christian/former Christian ... exactly. :)

That ... and feeling that no one can do more than speculate or hypothesize on the existence of a heaven, or its specifics.
I won't just survive
Oh, you will see me thrive
Can't write my story
I'm beyond the archetype
I won't just conform
No matter how you shake my core
'Cause my roots, they run deep, oh

When, when the fire's at my feet again
And the vultures all start circling
They're whispering, "You're out of time,"
But still I rise
This is no mistake, no accident
When you think the final nail is in, think again
Don't be surprised, I will still rise
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Post by Túrin Turambar »

And on that note, maybe it’s time to look at what the New Testament authors think of heaven and hell?

I can see three possible positions –

Firstly, that the ‘righteous’ go to heaven and the ‘wicked’ go to hell:

Matthew 13:41-42: “The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”

Matthew 18:8-9: “If thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.”

Matthew 22:13: “Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Matthew 25:41, 46: “Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels. ... And these shall go away into everlasting punishment.”

Mark 9:43-48: “... into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.”

Luke 16:22-24: “And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.”

John 5:28-29: “The hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”

Secondly, and the position that I find the most interesting, is that there is heaven but no hell – those who are not saved are destroyed. This is referred to as Annihilationism, and I started a thread on it a while back. Paul and James seem to be the major advocates of this position:

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9: “In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction.”

Romans 6:21: “The end of those things is death.”

Romans 6:23: “For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life.”

1 Corinthians 3:17: “If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy.”

2 Corinthians 2:15: “In them that are saved, and in them that perish.”

Philippians 3:18-19: “The enemies of the cross of Christ: Whose end is destruction.”

James 1:15: “Sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.”

James 4:12: “There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy.”

James 5:20: “He which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death.”

And thirdly, the universalist position of unconditional salvation for everybody – if there ever was a hell Jesus destroyed it:

1 Timothy 2:3-4: “God our Saviour; who will have all men to be saved.”

1 Timothy 4:10: “We trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.”

1 John 2:2: “He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”

What I find particularly interesting about this is that the ‘salvation through works’ crowd – Jesus himself and the authors of the Synoptic Gospels – advocate the first position. Those who are righteous – ie. are charitable to the poor and follow Mosaic law – go to heaven, those that are not go to hell. Paul and James, by contrast, are both believers in salvation through faith to varying degrees.

Here we can see two competing strands of thought in the New Testament:

1) Being righteous lets you go to heaven, otherwise you go to hell.

2) Believing in Jesus lets you go to heaven, otherwise you die a final death.

What I find fascinating is that modern Christianity seems to have combined the first half of #2 with the second half of #1 – ‘Believing in Jesus lets you go to heaven, otherwise you go to hell’.

The other thing that struck me is how eerily Gnostic position #2 looks. Some commentators have gone so far as to suggest that Paul himself was Gnostic, and while I’d call this a stretch I’d be willing to bet that he was influenced by Gnosticism. Modern Christianity generally doesn’t accept the annihilationist position (outside Seventh-Day Adventists and some Evangelical Anglicans) because of a belief in the immortality of the soul. I’ve heard it argued that this is imposing Greek thought on Christianity – the Greeks believed in the immortality of the soul, but many near-eastern religions traditionally did not (like the Gnostics). I’d suggest that the Old Testament does not seem to imply that souls are immortal either. For example, “The wicked shall perish” (Psalm 37:20), “They shall be as though they had not been” (Obadiah 16) and “As the whirlwind passeth, so is the wicked no more” (Proverbs 10:25).

And finally, you can see how Paul and James escape from the problem of hell. Is it wrong for God to torture essentially good people forever because they lacked a particular belief? Yes, they would say, but he doesn't.
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Post by MithLuin »

The Beatific Vision is pretty firmly entrenched in Christian thought - being in heaven means "we will see God."

Let's say we take the ‘Believing in Jesus lets you go to heaven, otherwise you go to hell’ formulation. Okay, you believe in Jesus, and you show up in front of God. What happens? I'm pretty sure that would be...an intensely painful experience...if one were not righteous. As in hellfire and brimstone painful. So, perhaps these formulations aren't as mutually exclusive as one might think.

Essentially good people do get burned if they stick their hand in a fire. Pain and suffering are not something anyone experiences because they 'earned' it. Salvation could be seen as dipping one's feet in water before walking across hot coals; it's the ability to endure the experience without the suffering part. (Poor analogy, since heaven would involve absense of barriers, not additional ones) If hell is God torturing people, he goes about it in an odd way. They shout "Leave me alone!" and...He walks out of the room.

Saying "Lord, lord" doesn't count as "believing in Jesus." You can still get stuck outside with the gnashing of teeth. When Jesus says things like, "If you love me, you will keep my commands," it makes it pretty clear that this relationship does not leave righteousness as an...optional thing. I realize some people put a lot of stock in saying a "Sinner's prayer" - acknowledging that one is in need of salvation and that Jesus is lord. While that (from a Christian perspective) is a good thing, I have not heard any mainstream Christian group suggest that it is 'the end of the story' - responding to an altar call or 'getting saved' is expected to be the first step in a journey - otherwise, why keep going back to church every week? The 'rest of the story' has to do with love and holiness and such. The argument isn't that all you need to do is accept Jesus - it's that if you don't accept Jesus, you're lost, so how do you plan to get anywhere? [I realize that Protestants tend to be a bit more sure of their own personal salvation than Catholics, so I have to be careful not to speak too much for others. I am certainly convinced that there are things I could do that would land me in hell for all eternity. It's not a 'done deal' til I die.]

I know that logic doesn't work for people who aren't Christians. I mean, it's like me reading Teresa of Avila, and in the introduction, she states that her book is only intended for nuns, not for people who haven't taken that step of deciding to leave the secular world. Ie, I am not the intended audience - so how am I supposed to understand the different levels of the mansion, if I've never left the courtyard? And yet, the first two levels do make sense to me (or did 5 years ago). The 'insult' comes in implying that people can't be good without going through these steps. I think that would be a silly thing to say, but I would say that a person cannot become holy without the power of the Holy Spirit (which is not the same thing as jumping through all the hoops as laid out by a particular person). But it does explain why Christians are so keen on everyone else becoming a Christian, too.



Before you can decide if faith or works or grace is the key element of salvation...you have to have a concept of what salvation is. What are we being saved from? For? By whom? If we are fallen from grace, and that is why we need salvation, salvation should return us to something like that original innocence (redemption is not identical to wiping the slate clean, so it does not actually return anyone to a state of original innocence). But, prior to the fall, what made human beings essentially...human? That is what redemption restores. And what of our fallen nature would have to be transformed to make that happen again? That's what redemption...looks like.
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